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I have a converted Plainfield M2 Carbine.

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Charlie3 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: I have a converted Plainfield M2 Carbine.
    Posted: Jul 10 2016 at 3:09pm
Can anyone help me figure out its history?  I hope this is the proper place for this post.

My research brought me to this site, which has more information than any other site on the net, as far as I can tell.  From what I read here, Plainfield Machine made 5.7mm Johnson M1s in 1962-? with the serial numbers  A123 thru A328.  See
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_Plainfield02.html. However, the receiver on my M1/M2 says that this info is wrong.

On the top/front edge of my receiver, immediately behind the barrel, is stamped (in 3 separate lines of text) "Plainfield Machine / Dunelle N.J. / Cal. 30 M1", but the "1" has been overstamped, and now it reads "M2."  On the left front side of the receiver, right next to the above stamping, is the serial number "A16x", with x being a digit.  Just those 4 characters.  It is very clear that nothing on the visible part of the receiver has been altered (other than the overstamped "2").  Those are the original numbers, and they are reflected on the BATF form 1512-0026 that registered its sale to me some 30 years ago.  That same form indicates that Plainfield was the manufacturer.  Thus, both the receiver and that form indicate that Plainfield was the original manufacturer and also did the conversion from M1 to M2.  I say the receiver indicates that Plainfield did the conversion, because I've never seen a conversion where the converting company broke the law and failed to put their name on the gun.

I'm glad the gun is 30 Cal, because no one I know of wants a 5.7mm Johnson.  That sounds like a curse.

Any thoughts on what the history of this thing is?  Why does the gun not agree with the information on this site?  The info here is so comprehensive and detailed and (did I mention) comprehensive....  Is the gun an elaborate fraud? But why would someone bother making such an elaborate fraud on a gun that was worth $400, at best, in 1985 (the year I got it)?  I'm confused.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lupus Dei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2016 at 3:59pm
So you are saying that yours is a 30 cal full auto but by serial number it should be a semi auto 5.7?

I think in the newsworthy section there is an add for kits to make any carbine a "spitfire"
Using 30 cal case and necking down to 5.7
Basically a different barrel

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/the-good-ol-days_topic1293.html

Now consider the looming GCA 86.
Maybe it was converted to 30 cal and overstamped to be registered?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2016 at 5:46pm
While the pages on Plainfield are comprehensive they have not been all knowing. And haven't been updated in a couple years due to my other commitments. No real revelations to add, but odds and ends.

Plainfield was fairly consistent in the serial numbering, but oddities do exist.

Those first serial numbers with the letter followed by 3 digits. I've learned of a few in .30 Carbine that started with the letter A. However, the features and markings are consistent with carbines made prior to the B-D series that followed.

To confuse matters, someone at Plainfield decided to use the A prefix with 3 numbers on their 5.7mm caliber carbines. The markings and features on these have been consistent with 1965-1967, not the A-D prefix carbines they made early on.

When they reached Z999 it appears no one made a clean clear decision beforehand on what they'd do when they got to that point. I have info on s/n 0008 and 0072 that is consistent with the continuation of features and markings following Z999.

S/N 109 has the features and markings of the A-D early carbines.

S/N 208 - 764 the vast majority had the letter A after the first three digits. By s/n 0786 they dropped the A. Those with the A suffix were a combination of M1's and M2's. It was not specific to the M2's.

The tracking of what they did when has been ongoing by me for about 10 years. Since authoring the pages you see now, about 2 years ago, I've picked up a few more to clarify a few things.

Your Plainfield Machine Dunellen, NJ markings are not what was used when the .30 Carbines were made having a prefix of A-D. They are consistent with those in 5.7mm Johnson, which ran concurrent to .30 Caliber carbines they made starting in the N prefix series and running through end of production. The receivers they used during this time changed a bit. If you could post a couple pics of the receiver that includes the Plainfield markings I may be able to narrow down the time span quite a bit.

A number of carbines in the V prefix series had no caliber indicated. The A suffix appears sporadically up through 2472A. A211 is a registered select fire carbine but marked M1.

I suspect, at a guess with only the info above, someone at Plainfield may have picked out a serial numbered receiver meant for the 5.7mm caliber carbines and used it for an M1 Carbine, then decided to make it an M2 instead.

For a number of years many of the machinist assistants they used to build carbines were high school students working at Plainfield as their shop end of a high school metal class. They came and went with the school year. The quality and consistency of work they did sometimes reflected their age and lack of experience. Some was caught by the master machinist or his full time assistant. Some wasn't.

The change from Z999 to whatever came next fell right about the time of the nationwide 1967 riots that included the area around Dunellen, NJ. Plainfield as well as other commercial carbine makers couldn't keep up with the demands from law enforcement. Plainfield was selling them direct to officers who came to their facility. Several batches were just given to agencies without waiting for payment.

What you see on the Plainfield web pages is a synopsis. I have enough info to author a book on Plainfield alone. And not just Plainfield. But unlike the others, the sons and daughters of the two owners of Plainfield (who were related by marriage) have been told by a surviving mother/aunt not to share any information with anyone. A bit late for one son, but it shut off the flow of info and I've respected his wishes as far as what I have shared.

Because of his interest in Plainfield and working with his dad there I suggested he write it all down and one day author the book himself. Offering all I have that he'd care to use.

Back to your carbine. I suspect it was a simple mistake or an intentional act to fill a need. This has happened with every commercial carbine maker from the 60's-90's. A few pics would help pin the time period down.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2016 at 9:05pm
Lupus, thanks for the reply.

You wrote "So you are saying that yours is a 30 cal full auto but by serial number it should be a semi auto 5.7?"

That's exactly what I'm saying, both by original serial number and by the original "Cal. 30" on the receiver.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2016 at 9:51pm
Jim, thank you for your reply.  It is very interesting reading.

Is it possible that when Millville Ordnance was making their 30 Cal carbines numbered A107-A361, they stamped them "Plainfield Machine"  ?    I'm lost on your 2 comments about inconsistent features.  I will try to take good pics and post.  My only problem on that will be that I don't have a macro lens with me.  

"Your Plainfield Machine Dunellen, NJ markings are not what was used when the .30 Carbines were made having a prefix of A-D. "  What markings were used?  Maybe this will be easier for you to explain once i attach pics.  From my review of the table, only Millville made .30s with the A prefix, so I'm lost concerning anything not mentioned in therr table.    Oh, down in the text it says "Of the 28 carbines recorded between 001 and 1500, 22 have the A, 1 has the P, and 5 have...."  Looking at the chart, which group did that 1,500 fit into?  

"I suspect, at a guess with only the info above, someone at Plainfield may have picked out a serial numbered receiver meant for the 5.7mm caliber carbines and used it for an M1 Carbine, then decided to make it an M2 instead."   That sounds very logical.  

I will add pics as soon as I can.

Thank you so much.

Charlie

1500, 22 have the A, 1 has the P, and 5 haveOf the 28 carbines recorded between 001 and 1500, 22 have the A, 1 has the P, and 5 have...."

illville OrdnanceMillMillvilleO Ordnance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2016 at 10:28pm
Charlie, wellcome to the forum.

forget macro. Good lighting, outside in partial shade or overcast day. No closer then 18 inches. Highest resolution.
Then crop the pic.
If you cannot crop or edit send to my email and i can adjust.

Best, Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2016 at 10:36pm
Pica are attached, I hope.  I can do more, when the light is better.  The time stamps are all out of whack due to resizing, but the picture composition and the arrangement of the backgrounds areextraordinary. 











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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2016 at 10:41pm
On the pics....  I don't have a macro lens with me.  So, I resized the pics in jpeg at 200-390k,  If you right click on one, hit "save as", then you can reopen it your computer and it should blow up very well to screen size, which reveals the detail.  

Sorry it's so complicated.  The lens just doesn't want to focus closer than about 30 inches, and it's fairly wide angle.....

Charlie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charlie3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 10 2016 at 10:45pm
New2brass, hello and thanks for the offer.  I was tediously resizing while you were making that nice offer.  Oh well....

Does it make any difference that I juat published the serial number of a weapon all over the net?  Hope not, lol.

Charlie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 11 2016 at 3:27am
We, and I mean all of us, tend to put both GI and commercial carbines under a magnifying glass looking for what we and others think should be correct for a given carbine by a given manufacturer during a certain time period. What we sometimes forget is the history and logistics of when the carbine was made and what's happened since then. Along with how many have been reconfigured out of necessity, preference or what someone things was accurate or looks good.

Unlike Ordnance, Plainfield and afew other commercial manufacturers didn't lay out an organized serial number system and stick to it. Plainfield generally followed a pattern but not all did. What happened after they reach Z999 shows a fair amount of confusion they didn't get sorted out and consistent with the first couple thousand carbines after Z999. I believe your carbine was during this time period. More below. If their serial numbers appear illogical it's because they were illogical during that particular time.

One of the things I have worked at is identifying who made a particular commercial receiver when it's absent any serial number or markings. Show me clear good size pics of all four sides with front and back and I can usually ID them, and the time period they were made and used. By the way the receiver was machined and some of the key features during various times. Add the parts they used and it helps greatly.

Changes in the machining of the receivers of those made as Millville Ordnance, then H&S, then the first 4 or 5 years as Plainfield helps identify those made during their time periods.

Have a look at the following pages in this order. Pay attention to the rear of the receivers, lug on the bottom the trigger housing pins too and the quality of machining. There's more but these are standouts.

Millville Ordnance
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_millville.html

H&S Carbines
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_HS.html

Plainfield Receiver Features
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_Plainfield04.html

On the Plainfield page above, take a look at the markings and inconsistency with lettering, fonts, depth, etc. Then compare what you've seen on the web pages to the markings on yours.



Presents a slightly different picture than the serial number page alone. Keep in mind I have a few updates on serial numbers and dating.

This next pic and those above help because they show a configuration that, unless a subsequent owner changed something, helps date when your carbine was made.



The ventilated handguard didn't start showing up until the end of the letter prefix series. Sometime in S or T prefix carbines. It didn't become the only handguard until the 1970's. The rubber buttplate with two screws, which yours doesn't have, became pretty much standard by s/n 5000. Keeping in mind carbines were made to customer specs or requests sometimes. Throughout production.

The rear sight is GI, not the stamped sight Plainfield eventually replaced them with about s/n 20,000 and later. Your stock is a beautiful walnut but it's not GI. Plainfield pretty much used commercially made stocks throughout production but that nice walnut they stopped using by about s/n 20,000. Your bolt is a Plainfield bolt, they started making them pretty early on.

Your slide is not a GI M2 slide. Other M2 Plainfield's I've seen have GI M2 slides or a cast copy Plainfield made. Yours isn't it. Can you tell if the slide is cast? Are there any markings on it? The majority of Plainfield cast slides I've seen have the features of the late GI slides, most obvious without disassembly is the face of the cam was angled instead of straight like yours.

I suspect your trigger housing is a GI M2 housing. One last question. What's the receiver finish like below the stock line? For a short period around s/n 5000 the finish below the stock line was not what it was above the stock line.

All things considered yours looks like it should fall in the serial number sequence after Z999 but before 5000.

I'm curious about the slide you have. For compaison purposes have a look at the GI slide variations here: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/slides.html

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hdwhit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 19 2017 at 10:35pm
Quote Charlie3 wrote:
I'm glad the gun is 30 Cal, because no one I know of wants a 5.7mm Johnson.  That sounds like a curse.


I did want a 5.7mm Johnson.  In fact, I sold my last .30 Caliber Carbine (a Universal) to get the one I currently own.  It's not as bad as it might seem.  The process of learning to load it becomes a lifetime undertaking and it certainly keeps you off the streets at night. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 19 2017 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by hdwhit hdwhit wrote:

Quote Charlie3 wrote:
I'm glad the gun is 30 Cal, because no one I know of wants a 5.7mm Johnson.  That sounds like a curse.


I did want a 5.7mm Johnson.  In fact, I sold my last .30 Caliber Carbine (a Universal) to get the one I currently own.  It's not as bad as it might seem.  The process of learning to load it becomes a lifetime undertaking and it certainly keeps you off the streets at night. Wink


Thanks for bringing the 5.7mm Johnson back up. I was so focused on he other things I neglected to comment on this.

Caliber is largely a matter of personal preference there are pros and cons to each. The only "con" I'm aware of with the 5.7mm Johnson is it's no longer manufactured except by a few small shops that will do a run when they get enough orders to make it cost effective. So most who use it have to reload it. Which is also something some prefer over factory loads.

I haven't had contact with them in awhile but there is a group of 5.7mm fans out here on the internet somewhere. At one time it included one of Johnson's sons.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANEEDMB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 20 2017 at 11:27am
Hi Jim, Always nice to see you chime in, we have saved the e-mails we got from you. They were Re. to the 5.7.
We have taken it out, shoots quite well when it goes 'bang'. Found out chamber was reamed to deep, maybe just a few .0000's, so when we take time we'll adj sizing die accordingly on the new brass, have also been told / suggested to pull bullets and seat them out further to touch rifleing, do believe should that may work also. Is another forum on the 5.7 with the son of Johnson but sees very little activeity.
Cheers, Woof woof Gus an me.
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