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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BEBIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 28 2017 at 7:57am
Originally posted by David Albert David Albert wrote:

Are you certain that other types of patches would not be appropriate on the right sleeve?

David Albert
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I don't know of any other patch that would be authorized to be worn on the right shoulder. If you see a soldier in uniform, the patch on his (or her) left sleeve indicates the unit he is currently attached to...a patch on the right side represents the unit that he served with in combat. A slick sleeve on the right would indicate that the soldier hasn't been with a unit officially in combat. A soldier takes pride in the patch he displays on the right. This is my understanding and my experience, but I certainly not an expert on military uniforms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2017 at 12:27pm
OK, now let's pursue another angle on the subject of the toy M1 Carbine being manufactured by the Parris-Dunn Manufacturing Company, as Mr. Ruth indicates on page 1618 of WBIII.

I have 3 Parris-Dunn Navy M1903 Trainer Rifles in my collection. All of them are marked with the company name on the buttplate. The civilian Parris-Dunn toy rifles are also well marked with stickers, or on their buttplates. Pre-war Parris-Dunn windmills are also well branded with the company name. I would expect that if these M1 Carbine toys were made by Parris-Dunn, they would at a minimum have stickers. As seen on the Maguire Thompson Toys, at least a sticker remnant is present on all toys, so I don't think that a previously installed sticker on an M1 Carbine toy would have worn away. The 3 examples of which I'm aware do not have stickers, and are in very good condition.

Companies that brand their products tend to continue to brand their products. These M1 Carbine toys are unbranded. I don't think they were made by Parris-Dunn.

Your thoughts?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (4) Thanks(4)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2017 at 2:38pm
Dave, my email is on aol. Same username
But in the meantime I did this
How many differences can you find? Anyone?
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 29 2017 at 4:03pm
New2brass,

I hit the "Thanks" button for you.

It definitely has differences, the main two being the shape of the receiver, and the absence of the mag catch. However, the shape and angle of the oversized magazine is quite similar. So, it's certainly not an exact match, but I don't know of any other vintage photo examples that exist to compare to.

Check your inbox for the image.

So, we're back to the Parris-Dunn discussion. Do you think the example that my friend acquired, and the example in WBIII was made by Parris-Dunn?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2017 at 10:34am
Front sight different location, Stock Shorter, Mag different angle.  No rear sight. The mag catch is present is a different location. Unable to determine if the trigger guard is there, is solid or allows finger to go through. Mag is held in with I believe a wooden dowel going through the stock.
The rear of sling looked as though it turned and went further back, however I think that is the edge of shirt cuff. So rear sling location is different.
 
Receiver section or lack there of is like the Paris Dunn gun. which is different then toy gun in case. Notice color change near left hand. Possible from two pieces of wood joined. I only mention it if someone finds something similar.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 19 2017 at 9:47pm
I'd like to revisit this subject, because I made a discovery about it this evening that partially resolves the mystery.

I found that my friend's toy M1 Carbine was featured in a 1945 Montgomery Ward Catalog. Here is a photo:



So we know now that it dates to the WWII era. We still don't know exactly who manufactured it. It's only been documented as a Parris-Dunn product by Larry Ruth, and we know through contact by the owner with Larry that his book content was based on a verbal opinion from a longtime collector from whom Larry obtained the example in his collection.

There are quite a few Parris-Dunn collectors, and this item is not on their radar. I don't know for sure whether Parris-Dunn served as contractors for Montgomery Ward, or other retailers, but all the Parris-Dunn examples I've seen were branded with their name in some manner.

Your thoughts?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 19 2017 at 10:11pm
I also just found another ad related to the original toy Carbine featured in this post.

I'm away from my books at the moment, so I don't know if Larry Ruth covered this in any of his books, but I think I may have found the O.E.M. for the Emergency Equipment Corp. M1 Carbine toys.



The ad is from 1944, from the E.W. Boyce Company in Grand Rapids, MI. This is the same town where the Emergency Equipment Corp. marked M1 Carbine toys are from. The ad is certainly from WWII, because it mentions government price controls. "The Government has interpreted and construed a change in terms as a change in price..."

If anyone could please confirm whether E.W. Boyce is covered in the War Baby series, I'd appreciate it, since I'm away from mine at the moment.

Thanks!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 19 2017 at 10:13pm
I think it's accurate to say these are not consistent with the toy guns made by Parris-Dunn based on the knowledge and experience of what Parris-Dunn normally did. At the same time at least one Parris-Dunn collector has indicated to Larry Ruth that they were made by Parris-Dunn.

Then let people form their own opinions.

Leaving it open-ended as conflicting info may also encourage someone to spend the time and effort looking for more evidence to clarify it's origins.

Be interesting to see if it's in a 1944 Wards catalog.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 19 2017 at 10:30pm
Montgomery Ward catalog 1944

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 19 2017 at 11:03pm
The Boyce ad has come up before. Don't think Larry had a copy of it when he did the books. I sent him a copy about a year ago.

The Boyce business address is an older single family home in Ft Wayne, IN.. Their "show rooms" were in the Chicago Merchandise Mart district. The ad indicates the toys were manufactured in Grand Rapids, MI and were shipped factory direct. Reads like Boyce was a distributor. Maybe a sole distributor but maybe just one of several in the distribution chain. Today we refer to similar companies as "drop shippers".



Previously posted here from one of the toys...



Emergency Equipment Company isn't in MI corporate records. Neither are they listed in the U.S. patent and trademark databases.

The Grand Rapids Public Museum at 272 Pearl St NW, Grand Rapids, MI 49504 has several donations from the Irwin family in their holdings. Including one IP and one S'G carbine. When Larry was working on War Baby III I tracked down the Irwin family for him. He'd heard they donated a couple carbines to a museum. I located them in museum's holdings. Larry visited the museum and examined them. Both were consistent with the S'G' carbines using IP parts.

If you know someone in the Grand Rapids area the main library or museum may be a good starting point for info on the Emergency Equipment Company.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 19 2019 at 9:20pm
Thanks to someone who saw this post, I was offered a family heirloom example of this M1 Carbine toy at a good price, and it arrived today. I'm excited to add it to my collection, and will post a full pictorial as soon as I can. It's very interesting to study up close.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Missile Inspector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 20 2019 at 1:11am
That is really cool, never seen one. Thanks for sharing!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 20 2019 at 5:23am
Looking forward to seeing the pictorial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 23 2019 at 5:18pm
Here are some photos I took of the toy M1 Carbine. The stock cutout has been carefully filled in on both sides, with a precision that I would not expect in a toy. As can be seen, the original stock is cracked. There is a thin piece of wood (top plate) that is added to the top of the carbine stock, and a large dowel half added for part of the receiver, and a barrel size dowel added to the end. This toy is missing the front sight. I will debate whether to make a replacement. I'm also debating whether to remove the old glue from the cracked stock, and also from where the top plate wood has slightly torqued to the left hand side of the toy. I may just leave it just like it is now. Your thoughts on this are appreciated.






I meant to take a photo of the buttplate area. It is the end of a normal Carbine stock, without a buttplate.

If anyone is interested in larger photos, I could provide links to the ones that were not resized.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 23 2019 at 6:10pm
Looks like a "deep groove" hand guard was used. I wonder what the underside of the hand guard looks like. Is there a cutout for the operating slide? Can you post a picture of the nose from the front and also the side of the hand guard? Also, I am curious as what the rear sight looks like. Aperture or V-notch? I assume pine was used for the "metal" parts (except the TG). Nice wood for a toy. I wouldn't change anything on it.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coyotejoe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 24 2019 at 7:20am
I wonder why they went to the trouble of filling in the cutouts since those cutouts are part of the gun it is imitating.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 24 2019 at 7:37am
Maybe because the stocks were designed for WWII combat in the hands of people fighting for their life and not the hands and minds of kids who would use them in ways they weren't designed to be used. Baseball bat comes to mind. No splintering?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 24 2019 at 10:34am
Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

Looks like a "deep groove" hand guard was used. I wonder what the underside of the hand guard looks like. Is there a cutout for the operating slide? Can you post a picture of the nose from the front and also the side of the hand guard? Also, I am curious as what the rear sight looks like. Aperture or V-notch? I assume pine was used for the "metal" parts (except the TG). Nice wood for a toy. I wouldn't change anything on it.    


jackp1028,

There is no cutout for the slide. The rear sight is a v-notch. It all looks like Walnut to me, except for the dowels, which are painted black.

Here are some more photos. I noticed this morning that the barrel band retaining spring slot has also been carefully filled in with a walnut patch. That's a lot of detailed work for a toy M1 Carbine. The last photo shows where the original stock, top plate, and handguard come together around the dowel barrel.

The screw hole for the buttplate has a remnant of some kind of filler, maybe wood putty.

Incidentally, the toy is the exact height of a normal M1 Carbine.



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