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Buying Your First Carbine |
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painter777
Hard Corps Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
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After deciding what your looking for, next step is shopping.
Ideally being able to have a hands on... eyes on inspection like in a person to person deal is the best way. In online and auction sales listings keep in mind that the only information is that supplied by the seller, of which you use to make your decision to purchase or not. Pictures and descriptions can range from a very experienced seller who knows what to show and describe, to a complete novice seller who really doesn't know what he has. Most of us have seen a carbine called a Underwood by a novice seller, when in reality it's a Underwood barrel, with the QHMC (etc) name covered by a adj rear sight. If interested let the seller know it ! Let him know your not just kicking tires. Most.. when they see your really interested will go out of their way to help. They did list it, they do want to sell. SO don't be shy... Ask questions, Ask for pictures, ask about inspection periods and possible return if not as expected. Keep a 'RECORD' of all interactions, text and Email messages. If your using your local FFL for your transfer, inform him there might be the possibility that you may have to return it. I've done this once and he didn't charge me. With the prices of carbines these days, the rift raft has emerged from the shadows, some with skills. Capable of filling punch style stake marks, stamping Repro/fake Ordnance stamps, removing and color shading Import marks, manipulating the auction's picture colors/shade/tones..etc to give the metal that olive green patina that's really on a freshly parked carbine, parts that have been cold blued, installing fake parts...etc. This list goes on and on. Really Important: Pay close attention to how the seller: 'Represents', 'Promotes' or Describes the carbine. Many are slick and can write up and present a description better than a ole time 'Snake oil' salesman or politician. They know how to manipulate a sales add.... what to say, what not to show, and colorful ways of stating nothing that applies. Lastly: Probably already mentioned, but have a friend or two that can give you their opinions to your possible purchase. HTH, Charlie-Painter777 Edit: to remove OT comments |
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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One of those biggest challenges that new buyers face when buying is knowing who to trust, and that's what Why Carbines? is saying about intentionally going slowly when buying the first ones. Everybody can be taken (and eventually everybody gets taken in this hobby). What happens next is just as important.
Here's what scammers repeatedly pull when caught defrauding a buyer; they claim someone (usually the defrauded buyer) swapped parts and that you are trying to scam them. You need to know this when it happens to you so it's not a total shock of insanity (like it is). The fact that they try this without fail is a testament to the hideous intentions that they had for the buyer in the first place. This can work to fool some witnesses on one single part, but when it accompanies multiple items like obvious band shadow, or scars from sight changing, and if it also has a replacement (repop) sight, well, it's an attacker crying out in pain as though he's the victim as he strikes you first. When I was brand new to the hobby I witnessed the above tactic attempted from one of the most well known Carbine collectors/parts sellers around, so it's not limited just to the outliers. |
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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I shop carbines like I would a used car. Just go-in with the idea the salesman is likely misrepresenting what he has, it has had the crap shot out of it and likely is a mix-master rebuild no matter what shape it's in, or what's hanging on it. You may never own a "collector", but you'll never pay too much for a fake one either.
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Nevinator
Recruit Joined: Jan 28 2018 Location: Conroe, TX Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Being rather new to Carbine collecting, I’d simply add that it would be in anyone’s best interest to spend $100 or so on some reference materials before they spend $1,000 or more on a rifle that may be worth considerably less. There is also a wealth of free info available on the web as well as military field manuals (FM’s) and technical manuals (TM’s).
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Lightning330
On Point Joined: Aug 22 2018 Location: Page, AZ 86040 Status: Offline Points: 127 |
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Great thread, great topic. Speaking also as a new buyer going on 3 years. Lots to learn and watch for. So far, I feel on the okay mark per money invested. Very happy with my Inland and QHMC USGI and my commercial type 2 Universal. All are now working slick and great shooters.
I see little in this post that puts a $ number for the first carbine purchase. It is a hard one to share because of what is out there, and the most important. Do your homework. I spent probably more than I should of on all 3 of my carbines. But I also would not sell them at the so called shooter price if there is such a thing. It's just hard to give advice on these things. First carbine with the excitement of doing it, can indeed hurt. I lived it, and got lucky enough on all 3 actually. Even a decent purchase at just saying... $1,000 can be an easy fix, or a total disaster. There will most certainly be things you overlooked, or better said, had no clue. It's a role of the dice especially buying online. Just be careful and ask advice if the time is allowed. If your at a gun show and feel that tingle like you might meeting some pretty thing leaving town the next day. Then your on your own. My very first was bought at a gun show. The itch and love for the carbine had been with me since childhood. I knew not what I was buying. Just had the money and had to have it. Type 2 Universal which is commercial. Paid $425 for it, which was too much. But after a lot of work. I love and enjoy it to no end. Paid $950 for my 44 Inland, and $1,285 for my 43 QHMC. All great, and hard to decide which one next too take shooting. To all first carbine buyers: Happy hunting for starters. Just plan on and figure that there will be work to follow later. If you want and desire to learn the M1 carbine and spend time with it. Then your set. It's for sure a commitment with love and addiction all in one. |
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Lightning 330
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WJH1958
Recruit Joined: Dec 21 2018 Location: 72903 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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I'm looking for a Paratrooper model any advice on price range? They seem to be all over the place from $1500 to $5000
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WJH
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Nevinator
Recruit Joined: Jan 28 2018 Location: Conroe, TX Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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$3,000 - $3,800 seems to be the going rate for a correct A1 model. An Arsenal rebuild will probably be priced more on the lower end.
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Retired First Sergeant, U.S. Army
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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1st and 2nd prod's are very hard to find....original ones that is. Arsenal para's are somewhat easier to find, usually much cheaper and usually not monkied with. They also may have seen more than one war.
The BBOG values is a very hardy reference when it comes to pricing things like carbines. Prices are listed based on condition %. One can get a subscription on a monthly basis (4 or 5 bucks, IIRC) get what you want and cancel. Sometimes, I see old refernce books at shows and will pick them up just to see if the price has chanced and if so, how much. Your stated price range of 1.5k-5k, to me at least, covers the continuum for 1st , 2nd, CMP and arsenal carbines. The BBOGV lists 1st and 2nd prods around the same price. To me, the 1st prods are higher. Arsenal M1A1's are somewhere around half the price, but still GI. JMO, but 1.5k for an arsneal is a little low. 5k for a 1st prod is low, but pretty close for a 2nd prod. I've yet to see a 1st or 2nd prod sell without some type of bidding war in an auction setting. Since this is a thread about buying your first carbine, be careful, diligent and suspicious. When it comes to 1st and 2nd prod para's, it is easy to get ripped off. Look closely at it for arsenal signs as they may be covered in dirt and grime. When I first started, rather than jumping in to the 1st and 2nd prod world, I started with arsenal para's and learning about all of the junk people try to pass off as a paratrooper. If you run into one and need some advice, I'm sure there are plenty of people here willing to help. |
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RClark9595
On Point Joined: Oct 30 2017 Location: WVC Utah Status: Offline Points: 136 |
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Probably need to keep this on topic since it's such a valuable tool especially for the new collectors to evaluate their first Carbine...or future first Carbine purchase.
I'm a little miffed, as this thread advances, it makes my post more relevant, it is on topic and passing along what was learned after an un-informed purchase is just as important as learning before the purchase. Still educational, by the way, who and how does a thread become marked educational is there some folder for this or what? Does an Admin. have some way to flag it as educational that the rest of us don't know about? Be careful when biting some else's butt for a post, specially when it does turn out to be relevant. |
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Ron
USAF 4535 CCTS F4 Combat Crew Training Vietnam era Vet. |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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Because once it starts, other people see it as an invitation to tell their personal story, which is why I posted that. I don't mind reading other experiences; was just thinking this was more of a sticky note worthy technical thread. It doesn't mean you or I are right if other people do it. Lots of people smoke meth, for instance. And eh, maybe I'm wrong and it's a good thing for this thread to get those personal experiences too...because it's gonna happen I guess. Let me add some personal experience (again) for educational matters: a few long timers will try to cheat you in your early enthusiasm (and ignorance). Maybe they think you will never learn the difference because that's the way it was before the internet when people weren't so connected to good people and good info. What did I do to combat being cheated if I couldn't evaluate it myself? So-and-so would contact me to sell something or I'd respond to a sale add, I'd get the part, install that newly bought safety on my Carbine and post a pic on the forum that I bought it on to show people my new purchase that I was excited about. And a knowledgeable poster would spot the questionable part (if it was) and he'd post a response on the thread. It was simple and effective. If a seller knows you're going to share pics of the part, they're more likely to be honest. But people will still try to cheat you. I started about 8 years ago I think. I'm pretty new. Not like guys who claim 25 years, right? Guess what? Length of time means almost nothing. Because immediately I experienced long time 'collectors' trying to scam me on parts and it was happening on CMP where I first joined and started looking for stuff. There are some great people there but a few scammers too. Sometimes people make mistakes selling a part, but I'm talking about people who will intentionally lie in order to scam you. Most of them are still active on Carbine forums and still actively lying in public about their Inland with newly produced fake rear sight they claim as original because they've owned it x years, or maybe it's their Rockola with flip sight staking but has an adjustable sight they claim is original. So, develop a relationship with a knowledgeable person but don't expect everything for nothing. Help them out finding what they are looking for too. Last point: as a 7 yr-10 month accumulator, I keep encountering guys who claim XX years of experience and pretending that it means something. What we know is it means you bought stuff cheap way back and know when you're cheating someone. It doesn't mean that you are any better at spotting fake stuff, because when I notify a seller or collector that his rear sight is not USGI, I keep reading the same reply about how they've "been doing this since before you were born"---and they're still terrible at what they do because the part is 100% fake. Most of them know it's fake and are just lying, and they don't like you calling them out on it. That seller in Myrtle Beach said the same and then said most of the members of the old Carbine Club newsletter days could never spot real or fake parts either (does he know because he sold them those parts?). He accused me of being one of those guys. Ack-shoe-ally, no. I've only been active since 2011 and I think I owned 2 newletters back when that form of the club was active. Being wrong is typical of people who brag about how long they've been doing this. I guess those guys don't realize how incompetent they sound bragging that way. It's like when I started drumming, I'd meet guys who would claim they've been drumming for 25 yrs!, saying it like an authority. And I'd think to myself that I've been drumming for 3 yrs and can do at least as much as they can do. And Jacob Armen at 7 years old was on the Tonight Show doing something most drummers never did (or will do) while proving it can be done in what, 5 years if he started drumming at 2 yrs old.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
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Threads can be marked as a "sticky" or what some called "pinned" if you look at the icons next to threads you will see the icon has a pushpin to designate it was "pinned" This makes the post stay near the top of a section for anyone to easily find. Hopefully new collectors doing their homework will not have to look further than the first topic in the general section to get some well learned advice. As to on or off topic, New Year, new ways of doing things. I will leave it up to the OP (original poster) to decide if something in this thread is off topic. |
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RClark9595
On Point Joined: Oct 30 2017 Location: WVC Utah Status: Offline Points: 136 |
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tenOCEE
Are these pictures of a carbine you own, if so, I think a lesson was learned here, if not, then someone got a lesson. Point being, buying my first Carbine was before I knew this club existed, and granted I wasn't to keen on digging for information those pictures could have been me. I bought almost strictly on impulse and emotion, I had the money, I trusted the seller, I wanted the gun. In hind sight, had I known about this club, I think I would have taken more time to learn, I wonder how many other club members bought their first Carbine ill-informed? This thread is for the first time buyer, for me it will be a second time buyer and much wiser. Thanks for all the info. |
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Ron
USAF 4535 CCTS F4 Combat Crew Training Vietnam era Vet. |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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That Carbine I showed pics of is what to look for. It came from seller fanrun and was advertised as a worn original. While most of my buys are at least satisfactory, that one you can judge if it was badly misrepresented without my opinion. Reproduction flip, prior bayonet band wear on barrel, huge divot behind rear sight from previous type III adjustable sight, etc. for over $1300. Sellers have learned you won't waste money sending one back at a certain price point. You already paid to have it shipped and transferred and it'll cost more to send it back AND risk if they'll refund your full payment. If you were already misled, the liklihood that they'll also do it on the buy-back is high. Being offered a buy-back at your expense after a seller's misrepresentation is an insult to injury. They'll behave as thought they're doing the right thing for not doing the right thing. Other buyers on this forum have parlayed their similar experience to me with that seller. My first buy was an early Plainfield from a friend for way too much, but I was told prior to buying it that it was too high (350 in about 1993-4, which is like $600 today). It turned out to have a spectacular type II band that made it a decent buy 20+ yrs later. I wasn't into Carbines then. It was just a gun that was available close to me. 2011 is when I got into Carbines as a hobby after buying a Winchester spring tube mixmaster for $400 from a pawn shop (less than $500 today?).
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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I don't have a problem with the way this thread is proceeding as to me it still seems there's valuable information still being posted. BTW, while I originally directed this thread towards first time M1 carbine buyers, although it's still relevant to those making additional carbine purchases since mistakes can be made with experience or as a novice.
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rustygun
Recruit Joined: May 27 2019 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 23 |
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A Muzzle Erosion Gauge IS a very handy tool to have when shopping for your first M1 Carbine. However since it IS the hunt for your 1st Carbine you might not own one yet.
As mentioned earlier I use a rifle round and see how far the bullet slides into the barrel. The favored seems to be a .30-06 Springfield with Military 150gr FMJ. I use a 7.62x51 (.308) round with a 147gr FMJ Bullet. The common argument of using those instead of an actual .30 Carbine round is the longer bullet profile of the pointed .30-06 or 7.62x52 shows the wear better. In other words... tiny changes in bore diameter result in greater movement of the bullet. There is also the fact that dealers/sellers get a little nervous when they hand you a rifle and you pull a live round out of your pocket! Here (To my great shame) is what happens when you get caught up in the fever of buying your 1st rifle and you DON'T take the proper precautions; A rifle round not only drops loosely all the way to the case... there is room to "wobble" Not my finest moment. For those interested in the gory details, the bore diameter is .318" (A full 100th of an inch oversize) To use as a reference at shows. I carry a round that I have spun by hand with light pressure into the muzzle of a NEW "3 52" Springfield Armory Barrel from a 2007 release CMP rifle. The resulting RING is a good enough guage for me. Be sure to hold cartridge square and steady while turning. My 7.62x51 cartridge IS a dummy round. I show the seller the empty primer pocket just for good measure. As for shooting, I can keep all the shots on a paper plate at 110yds (Usually) |
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johnireland
Recruit Joined: Apr 16 2020 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Status: Offline Points: 16 |
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Such a good article and advice...really worth reading before you buy...and also after you buy. I hope people take advantage of its wisdom.
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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I can be a bad example of it myself, but patience is the key in today's marketplace. With saying that, I can't emphasize enough that a certain part or carbine itself that looks great today is almost certainly NOT the only item like it in the carbine universe and those other items will certainly come up for sale at some point in time, maybe even for less money and in better condition.
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03manV
On Point Joined: Mar 01 2020 Location: near Charlotte Status: Offline Points: 262 |
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And usually after you just "bought" one! or two! Patience is a virtue that will pay off in $$. (Do as I suggest, not as I do.)
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Don
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Well, I do tend to practice what I suggest, but who's perfect? |
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