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Bavarian CMP carbine with all Inland parts

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imntxs564 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote imntxs564 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 07 2016 at 4:03pm
I talked to Jim last night on the phone cause he has all the pictures and asked him about the Carbine and to look at the T2 BB and other parts and told me that there real USGI parts and has seen quite a few of them like that and also about the Swivel. He said a lot were like that and it's fine. It was a Great Deal. I'm just happy to have a Rockola Bavarian in my Collection. I can't wait to shoot it, but I have to wait after I have a procedure done.
Frank

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 07 2016 at 9:05pm
There are some things I don't think we'll ever understand why it was done. I try to put myself in the place of the person who did it in the time and location they did it but it's all simply guessing.

One guess would be, some of the posts a gendarme was assigned too were small mountainous villages with only 1 or 2 gendarme with one carbine each. The established protocol for getting a carbine serviced may have included going without for a period of time. Sometimes the fix is unacceptable until the carbine no longer functions.

I do know each land/state had their own gendarmerie armory. From a contact involved at INTRAC, I know Austria sold them a large volume of spare parts. Many still new in the original packaging. Magazines included. Which Austrian agencies had them and where, I don't know.

Keep in mind these carbines from Austria that were used in Bavaria by their Landpolizei (Rural Police) and Forestry Police were also in very rural areas with small outposts. Sometimes without enough carbines to assign one per officer. With spare parts kept in an armory in Munich. Field modifications of the Foresty Police carbines are not uncommon. The most common example being the various hole patterns for different scope mounts.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 07 2016 at 10:46pm
So it's possible a Rural Police going to Steirmark could have seen little use and remained in or close to original condition? Wondering if there is a correlation between condition and their rural location leading to little use.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 08 2016 at 3:13am
I think it needs to be kept in mind that when the German police received a carbine there is no way to know what kind of physical condition it was in or if any parts had been replaced.

We know FN in Belgium did rebuilds for U.S. Ordnance but we don't know if those were carbines that would be staying in Europe or headed home. Likely not all that stayed in Europe went thru FN. Ordnance field personnel had also been working on them as needed during the war and likely after the FN operation had ceased, probably on a Depot level.

I think all we can assume when the Germans received them is they worked and many were still close to their original factory configuration. But not all.

The German police carried their carbines in the areas away from the cities. Rural, Forest and Border. The Municipal Police didn't but some they received came from other Bavaria agencies. As far as use, the Germans were issued a vary limited amount of ammo during the Occupation years. During the early years officers were issued only 2 or 3 cartridges. So "use" was primarily carrying them, not firing them. I'm sure there were some who did more or less than others.

The ammo situation was different in Austria, who received the vast majority of their carbines when the Occupation ended. This is when the gendarmerie began placing the state and number on the trigger housings. The Austrians started making their own ammo almost immediately, at Hirtenberger.

Whereas West Germany during and after the Occupation was on a hostile border with the east, Austria wasn't so much. A fence was added at some point but most areas it was simply three strands of barbed wire like a cattle pasture. There was a reason for this difference but unrelated to this topic.

In Austria, how much a carbine was carried and how much it shot varied with the various agencies, the location of each post or outpost and the policies locally and statewide. The Gendarmerie carried them more and longer than any other agency but it varied by state, post and outpost.

One example would be Lower Austria. The rural police handled the suburbs of Vienna outside the city limits. In the Southern half of their state the decision was made to keep them at the posts (police Stations) in case they were needed. They were taken out once a year, test fired, cleaned and put back. Qualifications were not done by each officer with a carbine assigned to them. A quantity was selected for use for qualification. At least sometimes that quantity was maintained by the training facility if there was one. The main gendarmerie school in Linz, Upper Austria, would be an example.

I'm not aware of any other Austrian state level gendarmerie who kept them stored most the time. I'm sure it was done based on location and internal policies. Which changed over time.

In Austria, some states had their armories do upgrades to the various parts U.S. Ordnance guidelines indicated as upgrades. The most common land/state to do this was Lower Austria. Some states upgraded nothing other than maybe the rear sight sometimes. Depended on availability. One standout was the land/state of Salzburg. They pretty much left them in the condition they received them.

I think it's natural for us to look at a GI carbine through a microscope or magnifier for what it is when we obtain it, comparing it to the standards the WWII contractors who built them were held too. While keeping in mind it went to war and a police agency used it. But without the knowledge, realization and subsequent appreciation of what it went through day to day over the years. And it varied greatly depending on the various who and where.

From the start of my research one of goals has been to educate regarding the various who and where in relation to West Germany and Austria. Most collectors were stripping them of their parts when I started. To sell or reconstruct what was believed to be factory original. Many still do as they have no interest in the carbine's history. No criticism here.

One of my goals has been to share the history knowing a collectors niche smaller than the masses would start upping the values and getting some of the people to stop stripping them of their history as a result. That's happened, thanks in no small part to CMP receiving the returns from Austria and bringing all the attention to them. History met marketing, and it was good.

For those with no interest in the history of these, many now realize the people in this niche that has an interest will pay almost as much, if not as much, as a GI carbine that didn't get marked up by Germany or Austria. Import marks are simply part of that history to this niche.

Just as with any collectors, beauty and value is in the eyes of the beholder. One man's junk is another man's treasure. If you have a carbine I'm looking for and I know the rarity of it's history makes it rare, you'd be surprised what I'd pay for it. And while I'm different, I'm not alone.

One group I knew would be interested in the carbines used by the police in Germany and Bavaria are the law enforcement officers here in the USA. I was one of them when I bought one of these to go shoot with my son.

Think, Rural Police was a state police. Forestry Police and Game Warden were what? Border Guard, Prison Guard, Municipal Police and the one no one thinks of because no one see's them they're so rare, Railway Police. Any idea what the numbers are comparing Railroad collectors to Carbine collectors?

Each to their own. It's your carbine. You decide. Just know if you don't like it there may be someone who does who is willing to pay for it. Just gotta find them.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote imntxs564 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 08 2016 at 8:21am
Great Information Jim, This answers SO much to Collectors of these Carbines or New Collectors just coming across one to buy. I really respect How much time you put in to get all this information and I can only hope you stay Strong with what your doing for ALL of us. Thank You !
Frank

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 08 2016 at 8:58am
A note about the Bavaria Forestry Police. The reason they put scopes on their carbine was simple, they could obtain better accuracy than with the peep sight. Not as a sniper rifle, but for putting the bullet on target and the targets were often rabid animals who wandered into a village looking for something to eat.

They had a serious problem with rabid skunks in Bavaria after WWII. A target to keep your distance from but putting the bullet on target the first time. Chasing rabid skunks wherever they went wasn't much of a sport. Especially if they got under or in someone's home. Or the missed bullet did.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote imntxs564 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 08 2016 at 9:30am
Thats just a amazing even to get that information about Rabid Skunks and other animals. Going back to the Holes where it looks like a mount was added I always heard there were there to add a Sniper Scope. I was reading M1A1's reply about the the hole in the Front Sight. I did make a little sense to me about it being put there to add a Screw to keep the Sight Tight . When I added my Beryl Style Picatinny Rail on my Russian Saiga AK 47 it had a hole right between the scope and where it attached to the Rear Sight and it was added for a Set Screw to keep the Balance and add Strenght to the Thin Picatinny Rail. The Picture in the beginnng of this Bavarian thread has that hole with threads on the Front Sight right where there is usually the letter of the maker was added to attach some type of device to align the Rear Sight. I thought I asked you about that when we talked I see threads. Was this used to keep the Front Sight on tight or to add a device to align the Rear Sight ? When i went back to look at mine it doesn't look like there was one on my Front Sight. Thank You Jim
Frank

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