Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine
|
First Marine Corps reciept and issue of carbines? |
Post Reply | Page <12 |
Author | |
W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Marines don't steal Marty, they acquire.
|
|
Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
|
Smokpole
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 21 2019 Location: Madison ohio Status: Offline Points: 1052 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Matt, the federal fiscal year ends on Sept 30 these days, but you are correct, in 42 it ended on the last day of June. There are some pictures of the army landing in Operation Torch that show a few carbines, so at least a few saw action with them during that operation.
|
|
OGCA Life member
NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |
|
Marty Black
Moderator Group Editor in Chief Emeritus Joined: Dec 30 2015 Location: Pismo Beach, CA Status: Offline Points: 100336 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Very interesting, Matt X. You have certainly done your homework on the Marine Corps during WWII. Given the tradition-bound reluctance of the Marines to issue the M1 Garand in 1942, it stands to reason that the M1 Carbine wasn't a priority for them.
You've probably read that the Marines didn't fall in love with the Garand until the Army showed up on Guadalcanal in about Jan-Feb 1943 and realized that the M1 was a much better combat rifle than their '03s. And they started stealing them from the GIs! I assume that the Army had carbines on Guadalcanal, but I can't remember reading anything about that. The book "Shots fired in Anger" by John George mentions the carbine in combat, but I'm not sure if the author first used one on Guadalcanal or in a later campaign. I sold most of my WWII book collection 13 years ago, so I can't look it up. Keep on studying, keep on learning! It's a fun ride! Regards, Marty Black |
|
Marty Black
|
|
Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 766 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Marty, Thank you for sharing that. That makes October 1943 the earliest documentation yet for carbines issued to Marines heading into combat. Perhaps not surprising it would be prioritized for airborne troops.
The author of https://usmcweaponry.com/wwii-korean-era/ has posted December ’43 reports for M1 Carbine as well as M1 Rifle performance at Tarawa. Those might be the earliest beach landings with the carbines. Here’s another piece of the puzzle. Almost halfway down the webpage are some USMC weapons inventories from Guadacanal and there are no carbines on any of them. The last image in that row is total inventory of the Marine Corp. There are 3,505 carbines (compared with some 63,000 Garands and 88,000 M1903s). The caption states the inventory is from the end of the 1942 fiscal year. That may be a mistake. It is my understanding that the end of fiscal year 1942 was June 30, 1942. The document's last column is a projection for Dec 1943. My guess is that is a June 1943 inventory. Thirtyround. If you can point to some photo earlier than October 1943 that would be great. Stateside, shipboard, etc. would all be good. Other than airborn, carbines may have initially been seen like the M1 Rifles, best for roles least likley to be in an environment that would foul the working mechanisms. My guess is the carbines were considered specialist weapons and not issued out on 742 as the rifles traditional had been. Marine recruit training really suffered with the massive increases at the begining of the war. To accomodate the additional recruits, basic was reduced to 5 weeks in January of 1942, then brought up to 7 weeks in March. Rifle training was already under pressure in 1941 as the Corps ran amphibious excercises in preparation for the anticipated role of Fleet Marine Force. Some new Marines did not get their rifle training until they returned from the excercises. Of the Marines that fired for rifle qualification in 1941, only 78% made the minimum. [Training info from Kenneth Condit, Marine Corps Ground Training in World War II, https://archive.org/details/marinecorpsgroun00unit/mode/2up/ There is one mention of carbines in that report; under Infantry Training its notes that pistol was replaced by carbine 25 August 1943 (page 180).
|
|
Marty Black
Moderator Group Editor in Chief Emeritus Joined: Dec 30 2015 Location: Pismo Beach, CA Status: Offline Points: 100336 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
The only mention that I can remember from Carbine Club newsletters is an After-Action Report by the 2nd Marine Parachute Battalion that conducted a 10 day diversionary raid in the Solomon Islands in Oct-Nov 1943. See Newsletter 276, pp 6-7.
This report detailed the Marines' experience with small arms, and for the carbine, it reported: "Functioned extremely well throughout the operation. Was subjected to abusive treatment in mud, rain, and salt water with most satisfactory results. Accurate and effective in the jungle. Its discharge sounds like the Japanese .25 caliber, and was occasionally confused therewith." Concerning the "Automatic Pistol...Little use. The carbine is very nearly as easy to carry and provides a greater measure of protection. Due to reduced visibility, officers frequently find themselves in the middle of a patrol action, where it is essential that they be able to defend themselves. The pistol appears to have utility only as an emergency weapon for machine gun and mortar personnel." There you have it! Used by permission, since I wrote the article for the Carbine Club! :-) Marty Black |
|
Marty Black
|
|
thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 182 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The USMC had double in size/strength from June of 42 (142,613) to June of 43 (308,523), I would certainly assume there was a mighty large number of 30 Carbines involved in arming them. All USMC Campaigns through all of 1943 show, through archived imagery, that the M1 carbine was used.
|
|
Abel4287
Recruit Joined: Jul 16 2021 Location: Toledo Status: Offline Points: 92 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
I have inland 1652 and from what I have read it would have been in the first block sent over to Europe but it would have to the Army in about July of ‘42
|
|
USMC 2111
|
|
thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 182 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Nov 42 sounds about right. My guess however is they didnt really see them in big numbers until early to mid 43. As far as how issued, both stateside and those forward deployed as well. The fam fire or qualification or just doping the rifle would have been a simple task to any Marine. Forward deployed, getting an M1 Carbine doped in at some makeshift range would of taken a few minutes and probably no more that a magazine of ammo, then from there if they had ammo to spare they could shoot more getting more in tune with its attributes etc.
|
|
Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 766 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
That helps. I ask because November 1942 MCO states the marksmanship course [for carbines] outlined in section III, Chapter 2, FM 23-7 to be fired for qualification after completion of the rifle qualification. Recruit Depots to be notified when to start carbine firing. [emphasis added] However, depending on when the carbines were recieved and then distributed, this may have never implemented. The training MCO which came out July 19, 1943 replaced carbine qualification with a familiarization course. It wasn't until '45 when a carbine qualification course was again ordered, and then initially just for Fleet. Everyone else continued with the familiarization course. |
|
thirtyround
On Point Joined: Nov 14 2016 Location: NE Arkansas Status: Offline Points: 182 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
My best educated guess based on research and probabilities...Probably between July 42 - Jan 43 at earliest and then in very limited quantities if that, mass issue early to mid 43 and beyond.
*There is speculation that the Marine Raiders received very small quantities early on but only veteran talk, no photo's or documents to substantiate that hypothesis. This is partly based on the fact the President's son was the XO and would probably engage in some "privileged" status of authority to possibly acquire a small group of rifles. |
|
Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 766 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
When did the USMC first receive quantities of M1 carbines to distribute ? And is it known if they were issued stateside or shipped out?
|
|
Post Reply | Page <12 |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum |