Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine
|
Presentation carbine? |
Post Reply 
|
Page 12> |
| Author | |
welbytwo 
Hard Corps 
Advanced Collector Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 803 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Presentation carbine?Posted: Nov 24 2021 at 7:19pm |
|
about the acid testing for serials==they have to contract that work out now--is probably thousands of $$ per receiver, they do not do them selves as all those employees got let go in the people reduction in the 90's. No budget $$ for a random test--now if it was used to kill someone they would run a test on but any other purpose I don't think they could get authorization to do or spend the $$ for--economic reality we live into today when all operating on a budget
|
|
 |
|
|
painter777
Hard Corps
Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 24 2021 at 3:17pm |
Yep, There are some highly skilled people out there. And there are those, not so much. |
|
|
Living Free because of those that serve.....
|
|
|
|
|
welbytwo
Hard Corps
Advanced Collector Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 803 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 11:05pm |
|
well--annealed,rewelded, ground, blasted, heat treated, reparked-I guess I would call it "restoration"--personally I always like "resortation" if of real parts, orig finish and wear patterns--yes I have resortations, originals and a few restorations. All are special in there own way.
|
|
|
|
|
Smokpole
Hard Corps
Joined: Oct 21 2019 Location: Madison ohio Status: Offline Points: 1057 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 8:26pm |
|
Marcus! You shattered my faith! RESTORATIONS! Really??? *LOL*
|
|
|
OGCA Life member
NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |
|
|
|
|
welbytwo
Hard Corps
Advanced Collector Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 803 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 6:17pm |
|
I forgot to add the two consecutive UN-Qualitys were missing a gun serial in between 10 yrs ago--maybe he found but if so would be a trifecta
|
|
|
|
|
welbytwo
Hard Corps
Advanced Collector Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 803 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 6:13pm |
|
you are being mean--Roger does great work-I had him do couple projects for me-at end of day he works magic with rare stuff that needs restored--like the Turnbull of winchester and parker and now 1911 fame-he redid #1833 for me and a Inland-Underwood lineout and couple others--some will lose their lunch over this but if I ever sell any of them I will tell whoever buying what was done--I have kept before and after pics-is amazing what can be had for a price today. Roger told me if it looks to good to be true it may not be! I am a believer in that for sure today. Go to Vegas and bid on a collector car--not much original left on them. Is same for a lot of guns now showing up at auction houses so in real world buyer beware and hopefully sellers are honest folks. Now that said we know what awaits the collector world. I am one who feels a registry should be set up so collectors can have a so called "history" of a gun. Reason I say this is RIA--rock island auction-not armory is selling for a multiple time Rockola presentation gun-alas consecutive serial to another Rockola on same auction. For whatever reason they have not hype the consecutive serial rarity of but then again how rare will consecutive serial presentations be??? I know I have seen same Rockolas sell multiple times now on the auction circuit just like the car auctions or farm equipment auctions. At end of day auctioneers never lose, remember that.
|
|
|
|
|
painter777
Hard Corps
Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 1:35pm |
|
Looked
 ing highly skilled enough that it sold!Like the 2 consecutive Un-Qualities in Larsons book that were shown by Horner with stake marks and mixed parts. I have the before pics and copies of the parts listed that were on them when they were in Horners shop. Before they were 'Machined and Restored' by Larson's shop. Now they're in the book described as: "The rarest of all full production carbines and prized by collectors" Let me know if you need pics of Horners work order and pictures of both with the adj stake marks. Or the pics of the after products when Larson was done with them. That information passed to me by Tommy Horner..........Wait, I believe that you Dan were also sent that email that includes the Fax from May of 1997 with CC Data sheets included. |
|
|
Living Free because of those that serve.....
|
|
|
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group 
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4661 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 23 2021 at 8:17am |
|
is this highly skilled? another of interest then there is the old acid test. X-ray, electron microscope, electron backscatter diffraction technique. the problem with messing with a serial number is it is spelled out in the law. As it has been posted the campble soup gang works very hard to create a national registry. When they track it back as far as they can some peoples lives are gonna have difficulties, especially if it was used in a crime. It has however been pointed out that there is a path to getting a new serial number. Lets not confuse the above with a pre-68 firearm that has never had a serial number |
|
|
|
|
painter777
Hard Corps
Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 11:24pm |
Who determines if it ever had a serial number or if it has been monkeyed with or removed ? I've seen some highly skilled removal jobs. Just curious  Thanks for quick reply to my mail MR. Any use for some lightly used Raptor parts ?  Charlie-P777
|
|
|
Living Free because of those that serve.....
|
|
|
|
|
painter777
Hard Corps
Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 11:14pm |
|
GI-Vienzen Auction pics show no Punch mark of front bevel- between front of rear sight down to rear of bolt. Shows it has the long hand guard receiver ring.
Later type III trigger housing doesn't have any of the letter or number stamps we normally see on the bottom of the TH. Cowens had a "EW" safety and Short tab mag catch. No pics of internals. As stated above now GI-Vienzen has the checkered safety and long tab mag catch. Also TH has the S/W Straight hammer with 22 coil hammer spring. No view of hammer strikes. Because of no Oval PW (Barrel not proof fired or rejected?) I'd give some $$ just to see the gas cylinder to see if it's really a WRA Barrel. Anyone notice in the Cowan listing the dirty sling, but with Round keeper? Now listed with a pretty sling with Flat keeper. Finial/Post shows zero finish wear. Also wish I could see the bolt loose, pics don't seem to show that wavy milling chatter on top thats so common on WRA bolts. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Been reading a long court case from 2002 between the feds and gun shop FFL over not having SN's in his log. Shop owner claiming feds are wanting a gun registry. OT Trivia (?) In reading about the need of serial numbers I found this... Here just part of it: *At issue is a February 2000 letter Marcus received from the ATF demanding that the shop turn over the make, model, caliber and serial number of each used firearm bought and sold at the store in 1999. The store sold nearly 2,000 new and used weapons that year. Marcus thought that the request violated federal gun laws that prohibit the creation of a gun registry. This was the first time the federal government was collecting data on gun sales and Marcus' store was at the top of the ATF's list. According to the ATF, Marcus' shop and 430 other dealers throughout the country were singled out because they had sold 10 or more guns used in a crime within three years of purchase. Marcus disputed that figure in the lawsuit. The ATF easily can trace a gun from the manufacturer to the first retail seller to the first buyer. Second-hand sales are much more difficult to trace unless the agency knows where to look among the nation's 100,000 gun dealers. The ATF said it is seeking to close this missing link. The agency contends it would have a better chance of tracing guns found at crime scenes with the list of second-hand sales. |
|
|
Living Free because of those that serve.....
|
|
|
|
|
welbytwo
Hard Corps
Advanced Collector Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 803 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 10:52pm |
|
no need for serial if never had one, need if it has been monkeyed with or removed, then you need a new serial. ATF has to give you new serial once you apply for it unless they can prove was used in a crime. To be safe simply remove barrel and take in then. It takes about 6 weeks to get new serial, then you have to take in and show them the applied serial number. They will not give you a email or letter-is all done with recorded phone conversations.
|
|
|
|
|
painter777
Hard Corps
Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 10:30pm |
|
@Marcus,
Maybe why this one doesn't have the Oval PW stamp on barrel ? I was just looking for any of your old posts about having ATF ok the serial numbers you had applied. Wouldn't this one need SN# to be sold / registered ? Charlie-Painter777
|
|
|
Living Free because of those that serve.....
|
|
|
|
|
welbytwo
Hard Corps
Advanced Collector Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 803 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 10:08pm |
|
receiver does not have same springtube cuts as EXP-A so is not EXP-C, EXP-B is at SA museum-EXP-A has 12-42 barrel--In my opinion WRA would have had much better security then the auto parts plants. I would expect very few lunch boxes out of WRA facility compared to auto parts plants. Not saying bad but why would you risk stealing a m1 carbine if you could get a garand or just nicer WRA shotgun or rifle?? Think about --underwood type writer?, rockola jukebox? saginaw power steering pump? postal meter stamp machine? well maybe one of those!! I can see guns leaving the non gun plants far easier then the WRA plant but I think I have lunchbox from WRA but it has serial and is out of spec receiver or barrel. My saginaw lunch box was mostly defective receiver and barrel assy and was acquired from grandson of worker who brought it home. To me the question is were really many lunch box guns in spec main parts???
|
|
|
|
|
New2brass
Moderator Group
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4661 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 6:31pm |
|
Actually I think there is a EXP C as well. Might be in WB 3 I imagine this could become EXP D, but certain people would know a true one from a copy. Sure you could grind a number off, but that could land you in jail. Easy enough to tell though. The trade mark was moved above Winchester. The carbine has an earlier receiver, and early parts. Does not have a PW on barrel.. It is in a range that it could possibly have had a dogleg or straight hammer. However, with presentations anything is possible, same with Lunchbox specials. If you have the newsletters look up RO TEST 9. It had early and late parts. Lunchbox specials are out there. I think it was NPM that there was a large number of them. QHMC made several Q-EX with no other marking/numbers. By the data sheets we can tell there are several of them by the different parts or stock pictures. I believe an Ffl will put NSN for no serial number on a pre 68 that has no serial. |
|
|
|
|
Matt_X
Hard Corps
Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 771 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 1:39pm |
Well maybe I misunderstood what Roger was trying to say. The EXP/B marked reciever was an experimental carbine. Maybe he his point was that non-production carbines might have a number lightly marked on it.
|
|
|
|
|
Matt_X
Hard Corps
Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 771 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 1:04pm |
|
It's hard to tell about the stock isn't it? Behind the trigger looks like a Win, but with all the sanding and polishing the forstock's shape may have simply become more rounded. Now knowing that Dan is aware of some Winchester lunch box specials, I have to wonder if thats how this one started.
|
|
|
|
|
Matt_X
Hard Corps
Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 771 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 12:50pm |
|
In this thread 6 Rings, who seems pretty knowledgable, mentions two Winchester presentations he is aware of. Both he says have a number lightly engraved on them. One marked EXP B he says is in WB!. I haven't looked for it yet. Serial numbers weren't mandatory for firearms until the Gun Control Act of 1968. There are legal ways to handle firearms transfers across state line for pre-68 firearms. One would certainly want to be extra careful in any of the states that have attempted to crack down on sales of parts assembled guns (popularly called ghost guns). |
|
|
|
|
Pro Libertate
On Point 
Joined: Jun 19 2021 Location: Hayden, ID Status: Offline Points: 348 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 12:45pm |
Good eye there. There is a spot on the rear of the receiver that looks incongruous to the rest of the finish.
|
|
|
Eric
NRA Life Member NRA-Certified RSO Project Appleseed “Rifleman” When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!" |
|
|
|
|
Pro Libertate
On Point
Joined: Jun 19 2021 Location: Hayden, ID Status: Offline Points: 348 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 12:12pm |
|
I would be so cautious in purchasing something like that. It wouldn't take much effort to grind off the serial, reparkerize the thing, and make it look like a factory job. It'd be the easiest $8,500 I ever made. The exotic-looking stock would be more difficult to produce, but is still within the realm of possiblity if one has access to a stock duplicating machine. I'm not saying that's the case here, but I'd treat it with a healthy amount of scepticism.
Serial numbers weren't actually a legal requirement until the passing of The 1968 Gun Control Act, so I wouldn't expect you'd have any issues whatsoever regarding transfer. I've purchased a couple Winchester Model 67s in the past, and both are devoid of serials.
Edited by Pro Libertate - Nov 22 2021 at 12:33pm |
|
|
Eric
NRA Life Member NRA-Certified RSO Project Appleseed “Rifleman” When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!" |
|
|
|
|
Durango56
Recruit 
Joined: Dec 27 2016 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 67 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: Nov 22 2021 at 11:56am |
|
Not that I would by it, but if I did how would you check it in with FFL? Would you have to apply for a serial number with BATFE? When did they move Trademark under Winchester it was fairly late wasn't it?
|
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
Page 12> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You can vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
welbytwo wrote: