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Quality H.M.C. German Police (Close to Original) |
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03manV
On Point Joined: Mar 01 2020 Location: near Charlotte Status: Offline Points: 262 |
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Posted: Jun 25 2020 at 9:11am |
Many swivels have been "lost" or removed from first type bands; one sees many original
first type bands for sale without swivels The expedient method to "get" a swivel is to buy one of the $15 or $20 complete repro bands and use the swivel to replace the missing original. The repro swivel above is a great example, and appears quite similar to the band you have posted pictures of. One guy in France has scores of original bands with screws for sale online, but no swivels! I suspect the swivel remained with the sling and somewhere in France there is a cache of swivels and slings!
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Don
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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I checked the barrel bands and swivels on carbines used by Bavaria, the other U.S. Occupation Sectors, and Austria. Found two swivels that weren't GI. Both are different than one another and appear to have been hand made.
Have a look at this one Northridge International is selling: https://www.ebay.com/itm/392054782036 As GI parts have become more rare Northridge Intl has been having commercial versions made. A number of resellers buy wholesale from Northridge. Jim |
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03manV
On Point Joined: Mar 01 2020 Location: near Charlotte Status: Offline Points: 262 |
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Yes, on the type one swivel- they are asymmetric!
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Don
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hurrikane18
Recruit Joined: Jun 05 2020 Location: SK, Canada Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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No the white arrow was already on the picture. I didn’t want to use anyone’s pictures without permission so I used the one on this website (It happened to have the arrow). So the back of the swivels are rounded and the fronts are flat on all WWII era swivels? I’ve never noticed that before, thanks!
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03manV
On Point Joined: Mar 01 2020 Location: near Charlotte Status: Offline Points: 262 |
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Tyler,
You are looking at the front of the swivel in your picture, and the back of the swivel in the picture above. The swivel on your QHMC is a repro, based on the shape and finish; the above swivel is entirely different in shape/size and finish. Does the white arrow have any significance to a question? |
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Don
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hurrikane18
Recruit Joined: Jun 05 2020 Location: SK, Canada Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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^ here’s what I’m referring to. This is the picture used directly from this website regarding barrel bands/sling swivels. I can easily tell the difference between this sling swivel and mine. The swivel on the all original QHMC in the other post looks more similar to mine when compared to this rounded one though. That’s why I was curious if there was some correlation. Sounds like it’s just a coincidence that his QHMC is the flatter version though. What is the difference between the rounded version and flatter version? Is it a year difference or just difference in manufacturing? Tyler
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hurrikane18
Recruit Joined: Jun 05 2020 Location: SK, Canada Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Fair enough, if you guys still think it’s commercial that works for me. I definitely saw the difference initially when I compared it to other carbines with much more rounded swivels but the other Quality Hardware swivel I’m referring to is much more flat like mine. My eyes are obviously not as keen as some of yours though. Mine isn’t nearly as worn which is obviously suspicious but it’s hard to tell other than that. At least for me. Thanks again.
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2959 |
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Tyler, do you really think that Smocki's swivel looks the same as yours? I am not seeing what you are seeing. |
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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MilsurpsUSGI
Recruit Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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I still think it's commercial. I believe QHMC swivels were mostly supplied by Union Hardware, so it should be shaped much like those seen on other Carbine manufacturers who used swivels supplied by them. A couple examples would be UI, UP, etc. Do you have a link for Smocki's QHMC? - Bob
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hurrikane18
Recruit Joined: Jun 05 2020 Location: SK, Canada Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Hello again,
I just saw another post on this forum of Smocki‘s original QHMC carbine and his sling swivel looks the same as mine with the difference being that his has Quality Hardware markings and mine is unmarked. Is the thought still that mine is a commercial reproduction or is it possible that Quality Hardware’s sling swivels were just a little different? Cheers! Tyler
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hurrikane18
Recruit Joined: Jun 05 2020 Location: SK, Canada Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Thanks Jim,
I look forward to reading about your new research. Let me know if you’d like any more specific pictures of my carbine when you’re working on the Wurttemberg-Baden section. Cheers! Tyler
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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Tyler
Currently I'm working on an overhaul of the page on Hessen along with changes to the Armory page. Bremen will probably be next then I need to get back to the infrared project and pages. I need to make some changes on the Wurttemberg-Baden page but holding off waiting for additional info I anticipate will be forthcoming. Will be making contact with someone in Germany familiar with the history of the police weapons but need to get a few things squared away here first. The lack of markings on the parts I think was related to the area in which your carbine was used and what they did or didn't do in that area. The stock was on it when they used it, as evidenced by those stag horns. Jim |
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hurrikane18
Recruit Joined: Jun 05 2020 Location: SK, Canada Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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hurrikane18
Recruit Joined: Jun 05 2020 Location: SK, Canada Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Hi Jim!
Great to hear from you, your reputation precedes you on this topic. Thank you for all the work you’ve put into this research, and especially for taking the time to respond to my post! With respect to my carbine, this information was acquired with the direct help of your website and my markings are consistent with your research: Top Rear Receiver: 282 Recoil Plate: L.P.W. (Landespolizei Württemberg) L/H Side of Receiver: 0818 Bottom Trigger Housing: WB-LP-0818 Bottom Stock Grip: Stag-Horn (Württemberg) I’m sorry I haven’t included pictures of these markings, I will be sure to post them sometime this week! The rifle is still fairly new to me. I purchased it from a guy in Quebec who got it in an estate sale. I had no idea of this rifles history until it was in my possession and I started researching it. I’m certain now that he didn’t know what it was either. I’m told the rifle is in the same condition as when he purchased it, so I’m making an assumption that the sling and oiler got left behind in the estate (if they made it over seas at all). I find it unlikely that the previous owner replaced the sling swivel so it was likely the owner prior to him, or perhaps earlier still. The history of the stock has been the most elusive for me but I think any of the theories above could hold merit. I’ll have to accept that I may never know. Thanks again for taking the time, and I’ll be sure to post more pictures of the metal parts for all those interested. Cheers! Tyler
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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Hi Tyler, and welcome.
I'm the author of BavarianM1Carbines.com. I started the research out of an interest in preserving the history of the carbines used by the police in West Germany and the Gendarmerie in Austria. I started in 2005. I've moved on to other research and two additional websites but try to update the "Bavarians" when I can. Currently working on a rewrite for Hessen and their carbines. Keep in mind parts that don't appear to be original to the manufacturer may have been replaced by U.S. troops or armorers during or shortly after WWII. There's a possibility some of the carbines issued to the police went thru the inspect and rebuild program at Fabrique Nationale under the direction of U.S. Army Ordnance prior to being issued to the Germans. It's impossible to know who replaced what if something was replaced. Unless it was replaced with a part manufactured by the Germans. That sling swivel you have, Erma Werke manufactured barrel bands and sling swivels for the West Germans. No identifying markings. Add to it the owners who have had it since it returned to North America and what they may have replaced. There are commercial sling swivels that are flat like yours. I need to look thru all my pics and see if I can find one made by Erma Werke. If I do I'll post it here. Regarding Wurttemberg-Baden and the German police there during the American Occupation. The markings mandated by the U.S. Office of Military Government (OMGUS) Wurttemberg-Baden were the agency initials on the bottom of the trigger guard. The Landespolizei added their inventory number after the required initials: WB-LP-1234 for example When Wurttember-Baden was formed it was the upper third of the prior states of Baden and Wurttemberg. The other 2/3's of those prior states were in the French Occupation Zone. The Landespolizei in Wurttember-Baden were organized a bit different than their Bavaria equivalent. They seem to have retained some sort of identification with the state they had previously been part of. Typical of the Landespolizei stations in the Baden half of Wurttemberg-Baden is the Baden crest stamped on the top of the receiver to the left of the .30 Cal. Carbine markings. The crest was accompanied by a number that identified which police station. I have yet to learn which station used which number. Typical of the Landespolizei stations in the Wurttemberg half of Wurttemberg-Baden were the addition of the stag horns of the House of Wurttemberg. Usually on the receiver below the serial number and/or the bottom of the handgrip. I've seen a few where the inventory number on the bottom of the trigger guard was added to the left side of the receiver above the stock line. Have a look at the pics on the web page for Wurttemberg-Baden. The proof house in Ulm adopted it for use as their proof mark when they started doing business after WWII (1958 I think) but used it only on barrels during the late 50's and early 60's. In conjunction with a date and nitro powder mark. Sometimes there is a nitro proof mark on the bolt and/or receiver of the carbines they proof tested the barrel. What I've described so far has been the mandated markings by OMGUS and markings added by the Landpolizei in Baden and the Landpolizei in Wurttemberg. It goes farther.... What parts they added part or all of the serial number too varied from one agency to the next. Or the German police armory that serviced the carbines from a particular area. Some added no parts of the serial number, some only 3 digits, some 4 digits, some the entire serial number. So the omission of any part of the serial number was not uncommon. Though many have part of the serial number on various parts. Hope this made sense. Jim |
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painter777
Hard Corps Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1718 |
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Welcome Tyler
CH-p777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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hurrikane18
Recruit Joined: Jun 05 2020 Location: SK, Canada Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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03manV: thanks for the reply, I’ll get some pictures of the markings on the metal parts this week and post them here.
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hurrikane18
Recruit Joined: Jun 05 2020 Location: SK, Canada Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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Liberium: Yeah, here in Canada our freedom is limited to 5 rounds
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03manV
On Point Joined: Mar 01 2020 Location: near Charlotte Status: Offline Points: 262 |
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Nice carbine , I would say correct as used in Wuerttemburg.
In answer to your questions_ 1- probably not, 2- likely , almost certainly the stock was replaced in Wuertemburg when the carbine was repaired/reworked/or upgraded. -The staghorn is also the "proof" mark of the Proof house in Oberndorf(in Wurettemburg); which may indicate a repair or replacement part that required a re-proving; or it could simply indicate ownership by the state of Wuertemburg. -Yes, any other markings were worn off the stock in its use by the US and then Germany. -The sling swivel does look to be a reproduction. I'd like to see some pictures of the markings on the receiver and trigger guard relating to its German usage. Perhaps some other owners of WB carbines will chime in with whether or not their stocks have the antler on the pistol grip. |
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Don
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Liberium
Recruit Joined: Feb 24 2020 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 57 |
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a 5 shot magazine ?
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1944 national postal meter .30M1
KNSA (Dutch NRA) Member |
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