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Orange Hammer Pin |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Posted: Jan 09 2020 at 6:32pm |
Any metallurgists out there who might know what would cause the orange color in this hammer pin? Thinking if was rust, I tried to remove it, but nothing came off. |
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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Looks like it was copper-plated. Before the advent of new processes, a copper plating was laid-down prior to nickel-plating. The copper adhered to the substrate better than nickel and the nickel adhered to the copper.
It almost looks like it is copper with a grungy deposit on it. Just a SWAG.
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blackfish
On Point Joined: Mar 30 2016 Location: 999-0 Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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Does a magnet tell you anything?
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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For sure do that. We will know if it’s plated steel or non-ferrous.
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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A magnet does stick to it. Most of the small parts in the trigger housing, in addition to the pin, were magnetized for some reason. I think the dark areas on the pin are bluing.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4664 |
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copper selenide?
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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Residue from a cold-bluing. I have never seen this before.
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blackfish
On Point Joined: Mar 30 2016 Location: 999-0 Status: Offline Points: 290 |
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I was going to suggest this yesterday but why would somebody (who is not me) prefer to blacken (plated) copper rather than simply blackening the original steel? It doesn't make any sense.
Maybe the pin came from Greece? The CMP once sold carbine bayonets similarly "treated". I'm sure there must be a reason which just escapes me |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4664 |
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Some cold blue used copper selenide poor solution or bad variables. I am sure formulas might have changed. Reminds me of the blued parts coming out plum possibly due to wrong temp for a given steel composition Be interested to hear if others have similar colored parts.
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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As a hobby, I use to plate small parts like triggers, hammers, slides, tools, pins, screws and such. That pin looks just like something I would have flash-plated with copper before I applied nickel.
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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@new2brass - Interesting theory. I would also be interested if others have seen a part that looks like this. For all I know, they all look like this underneath as I've never cut one in half. Anything is possible and never say never, but I have my doubts this part was cold blued.
@floydthecat and blackfish - I do not know when this part was made, but it presents itself as an anomaly with an unknown purpose. I suppose it could have just been laying around the factory when it was assembled with the other parts into a carbine. Purpose wise, would a copper plated pin serve as a "lubricant" to a hammer moving back and forth across it? Also, I thought that normally only the head of the pin was blued, All of that friction would just wear off quickly with the friction of the hammer rapidly moving back and forth, correct?
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Smokpole
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 21 2019 Location: Madison ohio Status: Offline Points: 1058 |
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Copper plating is normally used as a substrate for chroming parts. It is always possible that someone was going to chrome the part and ended up trying to blue it instead.
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OGCA Life member
NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1998 |
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Copper would produce less friction, but I think plating a hammer-pin for that purpose only would be overkill. Electroless plating is a fairly recent process and if that pin was plated by some chemical action....on purpose or accident, it was way ahead of it’s time in terms of the age of original USGI carbine parts.
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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@Smokepole - Makes sense as this pin was found on a "minor" presentation carbine.
@floyd - I've been reading about the electoless plating procoees delveoped sometime in the 50's, I think. When I get some time, I post more pictures of it. Most of the parts are pretty standard. Just wanted to say thanks to all who offered up explanations. I'm no metalurgist, but it's facistanting to me and I've been keeping an eye on those who might be or know way more than I do about the subject and participate on this site.
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Jt22453
On Point Joined: Feb 11 2019 Location: Central Indiana Status: Offline Points: 114 |
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Out of curiosity, what do you mean by a minor presentation carbine? One with regular finish and normal features of a production carbine but marked as such on the receiver as opposed to the mirror finish, specially selected wood, wooden box and other features.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4664 |
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electroless plating is reported as being discovered in 1944.
There were many things that were in wartime use that were later patented or further developed. I am not making a claim that the electroless process was one of them in use as I have not looked into it nor read anything that would suggest its use on wartime production. Conventional plating was in use for a long time and copper was used for chrome and silver plate and probably others. We know from records that small parts were blued with some specific trade names. I believe there were all the hot blue, caustic blue , or black oxide or what other names were used to describe the same process. What I do know is Underwood was experimenting with finishes for rust protection as well as friction reduction finishes Before the war Underwood developed chip resistant paints which they used on their typewriters and business machines. Presentations at times used parts that were left over, did not pass ordnance for one reason or another. Some incorporated experimental parts. |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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@jt22453 - Apologies..Some context. The hammer pin shown is in an Underwood presentation carbine. When I say “lesser”, I mean an E code. For lack of a better word, the “greater” and harder to find Underwood presentation carbine had the recipients initials on the receiver instead of an E and a three digit number. CCNL 375, written by Marcus Rust, has more information on Underwood presentation carbines.
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Jt22453
On Point Joined: Feb 11 2019 Location: Central Indiana Status: Offline Points: 114 |
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Yes, the context you provided was fantastic. I did not know that about Underwood presentation carbines. Always appreciate learning something new. Thanks M1a1fan!
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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@Jt22453: No problem. More to come on Underwood presentation carbines...
I've heard a unique tool room carbine article is also in the works. More on tool room carbines here. |
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Jt22453
On Point Joined: Feb 11 2019 Location: Central Indiana Status: Offline Points: 114 |
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Very cool. Looking forward to it....
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