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Type 2 (belt) Pouch Anomaly - No eyelets

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sling00 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jul 16 2019 at 3:58pm
I have three type 2 (belt) pouches without the two eyelets at the bottom.  KADIN 1944, KADIN 1945, and B.M.C. 1944.  None of these are listed in CCNL 261 and only the KADIN 1944 is listed on the following web site.  Before delving into theories and deliberating fake versus real, I thought I would ask if anyone has info on this anomaly. Let me add this site http://www.usarmydatadepot.com (French?) has this statement and associated picture in their discussion on the type 2 pouches...”We present to you, a model of the Pocket Carbine or Rifle without the eyelets of hanging on the lower part, which was manufactured in 1943 by Kanak Company. We believe that this is a mistake of some manufacturers, in the interpretation of the specifications of this new model.”  

Anybody have any info, or perhaps one of these or another eyelet-less type 2 pouch?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 10:10am
let me start with the fact that I have not delved into the web gear to know much about it.

The "stock pouch" seems to not have the grommets for the M1910 hangers. 
According tho the french site they are suggesting very early in the (type 2?) pouches may have misinterpreted the drawing (shown) and omitted the grommets.

Anything is possible, but being of a new design I would think the inspectors scrutiny would be higher on new items.

So the question begs that how would Kadin, a major producer, somehow miss the grommets in 1944 and 1945?

We all know reproduction parts are rampant, and I believe I may have spotted some possible reproductions on the above site.

There is a slight possibility that the pouches may have been made for our allies that did not use the hangers. I would think this slim.

there is a reply post about mag pouches by one of our members that collects pouches. I PMed him a link to this post and he may have some insight. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote firstflabn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 10:21am
..


Edited by firstflabn - May 23 2021 at 10:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dnikkor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 10:55am
I have a couple of T2 pouches without the grommets...they are also without the standard U.S. front stamp or any maker's marks. They seem to have been made with the same quality as the USGI ones, so I have always assumed that they were made at some stage for allies though I guess they could have been made for "civilian" use, but with all the USGI surplus ones running around, what would have been the point...and the market for these? I could imagine that early T2's might not have had the grommets, but I would also think that by 1944-45, including them would have been the standard design.

I have never seen a stamped T2 w/o the maker's mark. This is not to say they were never made and if sling00 has some, I'd love to see photos of them, though I did view the ones from the French site.

I have also never seen any reference to T2 or others stamped B.M.C. on any mag pouch site, so again, a picture is worth a thousand words. I question these being reproduction, because again, bales of USGI T2 pouches were made surplus. Cheap.

I must admit that I am a collector (36 T1 and 30 T2 pouches, etc.) but am by no means an expert on their manufacturing history. I do tend to believe my own lying eyes, so posting large resolution photos is probably all the proof I would need.

If so, I will need to add still another rare pouch to my list of pouches to look for. There are already a few pouches that I fear will never be added to my collection. Is the search half the fun?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Dnikkor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 11:09am
I must be hard of hearing since I've missed the repetition of what they are to be correctly called. Their "official" military designation can be rather long and tedious. And pointless since we know what people mean when they say "carbine pouch).

I do join you in frustration over M1 Carbine magazines (and similar ammunition-holding devices) being called "clips". Good luck educating the masses about the difference though.

I personally try not to get my panties in a wad over this topic since many people call many objects by their incorrect name...though we tend to know what they are incorrectly referencing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 11:21am
Originally posted by firstflabn firstflabn wrote:

No matter how many times it's repeated, it's not a pouch.

Any discussion of authenticity needs to start with nomenclature.

If not, then maybe we can next discuss carbine clips.

Agreed, I believe it's Pocket, Ammunition Magazine. Please correct me if I am wrong.

And there was also never a "Stock" Pocket. It was designed to be snapped onto a Belt, Pistol or Revolver, M-1936. It was the soldiers that figured it would fit the stock and moved them there.

What I am now wondering is if there was different nomenclature between the two types? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

What I am now wondering is if there was different nomenclature between the two types? 


Don't think so, correct nomenclature for all types even 30 rounders was "Pocket" according to WB III, I don't believe that the word "pouch" was ever used officially. I have some Vietnam era 1911 mag (pouches) and they are stamped Pocket Ammo Magazine. My M16 30 round (pouches) are marked Case Small Arms.

Getting off the OPs topic a bit, there is an interesting magazine holder in WB III that is sure to get everyone's blood boiling that was used by the Army Air Corps it's nomenclature is Holder-Rifle Clip (Short) and it came in a 4 or 6 Magazine version.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 1:06pm
Collectors have been using pouch for years and will continue to no matter what the official terminology is. Clip I get, but yet again it will be used in the future, just not as numerously as pouch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 2:52pm
Regarding the B.M.C., Bill Ricca had a post regarding Garand slings that this is the Bearse Manufacturing Company, Chicago, Ill. He also stated this company also produced the carrying case for the M15 Grenade Sight and several different WWII T handle cleaning rod cases. I found they are still in business and contacted them.  Unfortunately they had no records of what they supplied for the war effort.  I do have a Pouch, First Aid Packet (yes pouch is in the drawing title block) by B.M.C. for comparison and included it in the attached pics of the front and inside of the 3 subject pockets/pouches.  

I also included a pic of the title blocks of the Pocket's Rev 1 and Rev 2 drawings. Rev 2 only changed the title as you can see.  The other quandary is the original issue date on the drawing is 14 APR ’49. Any idea on what drawing was used before this date for the time period we’re discussing?   

As for the unmarked pockets/pouches, Dnikkor referred to, I have one as well and have seen them occasionally described as issued for CIA covert operation, hence with no reference to the US.  So far all I can find is this to be pure speculation. Anybody have more info?

Here’s the pics.  Both KADIN's snap has only a small indent. The B.M.C. has a KliKiT PULL. 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dnikkor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 6:45pm
A picture is worth a thousand words. Now I gotta go find a marked Pocket, Ammunition Magazine w/o grommets and w/maker's mark. Now I need to add a Big Man on Campus "pouch" to my "not yet found" list.

Sorry for the "pouch" reference...bad habits are hard to break.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 17 2019 at 7:58pm
FYI, if you search for "pouch" in FM 23-7 from 1942, you'll find at least 5 references to "magazine pouch".  Perhaps some of us are just antiquated :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 18 2019 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

What I am now wondering is if there was different nomenclature between the two types? 


Don't think so, correct nomenclature for all types even 30 rounders was "Pocket" according to WB III, I don't believe that the word "pouch" was ever used officially. I have some Vietnam era 1911 mag (pouches) and they are stamped Pocket Ammo Magazine. My M16 30 round (pouches) are marked Case Small Arms.

Getting off the OPs topic a bit, there is an interesting magazine holder in WB III that is sure to get everyone's blood boiling that was used by the Army Air Corps it's nomenclature is Holder-Rifle Clip (Short) and it came in a 4 or 6 Magazine version.

I was referring to if the pockets from early to late had a different designation.
Such as Pouch Magazine M1 vs Pouch magazine M1a etc.

it seems the military would use such definitions based on configuration regardless of how the item was marked.
An example would be that a M2 carbine had a selector switch even though it could be marked M1

On the Clip vs Magazine. look at the drawings above. the pockets were also used with the M1 Rifle, so it could hold a clip or magazine.

As to the dates of drawings, many were drawn or redrawn later. Some of these drawings had no revisions to justify being redone. Maybe it was for standardization or maybe to keep people busy?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dnikkor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 27 2019 at 4:16pm
Now I have one too.
Thanks for the heads-up Sling00.
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