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Backward Flip Sights

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Grendl View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jun 13 2019 at 11:57am
Thanks for the answer, I assume one would use a punch since a specialized pin pushing tool wouldn't normally be necessary?

Doesn't matter in my case, I just looked and apparently the flip sight was installed backwards as the S is on the right side :-(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2019 at 10:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1carvine4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2019 at 9:27am
Here is another perspective that I do not know if was brought up. Could the flipping of the sight "backwards vs forwards" just be a personal preference of the shooter? Just like all the options for sights on current issue rifles.

Sometimes people have different backgrounds in shooting,  this also would explain the removed front sight ears, "v" notched rear sights etc. It would be way earlier to modify the rifle to your shooting preferences then to retrain someone with a decade of experience. 

I had an m1 that had the ears trimmed and the taller rear flip sight v notched .. I thought it was bubba's handiwork. Until I found out the gun was a bring back and was done during the war. Granted I was told the guy cought sh*t about what he did. But was marksman qualified with the carbine. The guy leaned to shoot with those types if sights and it just came naturally I would guess. I only sold it back to the family a few years later because the person I got it from didn't know what the family history was. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kro1970 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 13 2019 at 9:14am
Yes the flip can be removed and reversed without removing the base.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grendl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 12 2019 at 4:37pm
I'm sorry to revive this, but earlier in the thread, Mr. Albert asked if the aperture could be removed and reinstalled without removing the base. Any input would be welcome :-) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 16 2019 at 6:04am
Good info.  It's probably used elsewhere but I think this is the first time I've seen Kentucky windage used in an official document.  Thanks for sharing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 15 2019 at 6:56pm
Here is the best illustration I've found among my Carbine paper items of the correct orientation of a flip sight. This is from the Camp Hood, TX Tank Destroyer School manual on the U.S. Carbine, Cal. .30 M1.



Incidentally, this manual is undated, though it is very early, as it mentions that the Carbine was designed by Winchester, and was manufactured by General Motors Co., Inland Division, in Dayton, OH. It does not mention any other manufacturers. I believe the manual may pre-date TB 23-7-1 and FM 23-7.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2019 at 6:48pm
Look at slide 9 and see if anyone notices the issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2019 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Slide 5 and 7 both show the sling swivel on backwards.

Slide 8 has something that could be considered possibly erroneous.



New2brass,

That seems so obvious now...but it just didn't jump out at me...

In slide 8, is the piston missing?

Thanks!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2019 at 6:36pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:


Edit to add: FM 23-7 May 20, 1942, page two shows what I believe to be the Winchester prototype. the L sight was different. also look at the hight wood. 
 subsequent pictures show an experimental adjustable rear sight. the text says that models of the carbine initially issued will be equipped with an L-type rear sight. Page 4 goes on to say later models will be equipped with an adjustable rear sight

Charlie, I was just looking for the picture that used to be on our header with the Winchester prototype
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 11 2019 at 4:18pm
Wasn't there a very early WRA carbine reported with a backward flip sight that was on display at Cody, the Smithsonian or Springfield Armory.. ?
Seems I recall a very early one like 1,000,001 (Olins') or close to it.
Anyone remember this ?

Do recall seeing some WRA Prototypes with a different style rear leaf that had the 'Dish' toward the eye.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 10 2019 at 11:26pm
Slide 5 and 7 both show the sling swivel on backwards.

Slide 8 has something that could be considered possibly erroneous.

@blackfish, you explanation makes sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2019 at 11:17am
Nope, not what I am looking at.

Looking at the pictures it seems the carbine was run through its paces. I am sure it was manhandled and tore down and put together many times which probably accounts for the sling being frayed. That was the very reason for going to the D tips
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2019 at 10:44am
Also, the the end of the sling looks a little frayed. Check out slide #27.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2019 at 9:14am
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:


Did anyone point out the error in slide 3? It is on another slide but I do not want to make it too easy.





Handguard backward orientation on slide 3, and handguard groove identification on slide 11?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2019 at 6:38am
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

On the sight window: It is my understanding that by having the opening forward it lets in more light. My thought is that if the sight aperture is too thick it could blur the light. Sort of like looking through a paper towel tube.


A thick aperture cuts down on the light thru the "tube". Physically what allows more light thru is the thinness at the aperture - that's why it's dished to remove material and still provide a sturdy sight. Facing the dish away from the eye minimizes detail which the brain must sort out to get a sight picture when time is of the essence and there's not a moment to lose.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2019 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by Why Carbines? Why Carbines? wrote:

Printed materials, especially older and even new, can have reverse images. Now I am not saying that explains all of the backwards flips seen in the manuals, but it's a possibility overall. As far as backwards flips from the factory, I don't remember seeing a lot, just occasionally and sometimes it's the leaf that's backwards and the base facing correctly, other times it's the whole assembly. Btw, when I see one "wrong" it's often because Bubba "the Corrector" has been at work and the sight is phony, in fact it can be a tipoff to a corrected rifle as a whole.


True about the reversing of images, but the photos in all the cited examples contain sufficient perspective to refute reversal.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2019 at 6:20pm
Printed materials, especially older and even new, can have reverse images. Now I am not saying that explains all of the backwards flips seen in the manuals, but it's a possibility overall. As far as backwards flips from the factory, I don't remember seeing a lot, just occasionally and sometimes it's the leaf that's backwards and the base facing correctly, other times it's the whole assembly. Btw, when I see one "wrong" it's often because Bubba "the Corrector" has been at work and the sight is phony, in fact it can be a tipoff to a corrected rifle as a whole.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2019 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by NewScotlander NewScotlander wrote:

In the Marine Corps filmstrip, is the whole sight installed backwards or is the aperture installed backwards on the sight? It's hard to say from what I can see and I'm guessing just the aperture was installed backwards.

The serial number of the carbine appears to be 107888. Is that what you see?


I think the aperture is installed backwards on the sight base. The sight base also appears to have a lot of punch marks on both sides.

I agree that the serial number is 107888.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2019 at 5:03pm
Great find of the filmstrip. I am guessing it was redone at some point and maybe became obsolete? Seems the filmstrips that were standard were 7 series.

Did anyone point out the error in slide 3? It is on another slide but I do not want to make it too easy.

I have observed several backward sights on early QHMC carbines. I am guessing they may not have left the factory that way, rather they loosened up and the operator found putting the sight in backward that the sight can be drifted in place and hold its position. This is just speculation and may have left the factory with the S to the right.

The dovetail or the sight is supposed to be tapered, Maybe both? A member was working on looking into the blueprints. By having the S to orientate the base would ensure the alignment. 


On the sight window: It is my understanding that by having the opening forward it lets in more light. However, I have seen some precision sights with the taper to the eye.
My thought is that if the sight aperture is too thick it could blur the light. Sort of like looking through a paper towel tube. If you do not look perfectly straight the view picks up the sides of the tube. Naturally, this is an exaggerated example.

Interested in hearing others thoughts.

Edit to add: FM 23-7 May 20, 1942, page two shows what I believe to be the Winchester prototype. the L sight was different. also look at the hight wood. 
 subsequent pictures show an experimental adjustable rear sight. the text says that models of the carbine initially issued will be equipped with an L-type rear sight. Page 4 goes on to say later models will be equipped with an adjustable rear sight
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