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Type III barrel band w/bayonet lug |
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Paul1262
Grunt Joined: Jun 25 2018 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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Posted: Oct 09 2018 at 2:33pm |
I have read that a Winchester carbine produced between Nov 44 and Jan 45 having a type III band would be marked "C". Is it possible that the band could also be marked "SA" and still be correct?
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Yes, but it's not a one hundred percent proven thing, just very close to it given the number of late Winchesters with type three bands other than the Cowles one you mentioned. |
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Paul1262
Grunt Joined: Jun 25 2018 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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My research indicates type 3 barrel bands were marked as follows:
Winchester: C Inland: AI KI SI HI UI No other WW II contractor made these. Other WW II markings: AMCO JM SA MMQ C GM Q Diamond with a D in it or unmarked. If I have a Winchester dated December 1944, could a type III band stamped SA be correct? |
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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AMCO, SA, D in a diamond, (Donaldson?) and various Inland marked ones have been seen on later Winchester carbines. What is the first part of your serial? My remembrance is they started using type three barrel bands in February or so of 45.
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Paul1262
Grunt Joined: Jun 25 2018 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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First four digits are: 6585
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Paul1262
Grunt Joined: Jun 25 2018 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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Serial number is in the production range of Nov 44 - Jan 45.
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Paul, If those are the first four digits of the serial then you are safely in the range of the type barrel band, thus a SA barrel band is a strong possibility. Also, you serial is more a May 45 or possible June 45 production date. Has the front sight ever been off or can you tell?
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Paul1262
Grunt Joined: Jun 25 2018 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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The uscarbinecal30m1.com web site - "M1 Carbine Serial Number Production Chart" offers an approximate date of Nov 44 - Jan 45 for a serial number range of 6449868 - 6629883. There is no sign of the front sight ever being removed.
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Bubba-7
Recruit Joined: Mar 06 2016 Location: Columbus, Ga. Status: Offline Points: 49 |
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Inland moved the firing proof some time before the type 3 band started showing up. Winchester did not move the PW until the type 3 bands were on the carbine. So on most Winchesters the location of the PW will tell you which type band was originally on it.
Also if it had a type 3 band already on it, there would not be a reason to replace it during a rebuild unless the band was broken. I know for a fact, in my early years, I removed original SA, JM, D, type 3 barrel bands from 7.2 Winchesters and restored them with either, a W or low C bands. And I thought I was smart because some book said the was right. Everybody on ebay knows that W and low C bands were used by Winchester. Right. Ask any seller.
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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First, if the front sight shows no signs of ever being off then I'd feel pretty strongly that the SA band is original. Second, that site, while having some decent info, is wildly off in their carbine serial range estimates. Your receiver would have not been stamped till late April of 45 and finished into a carbine for most likely weeks later. |
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Paul1262
Grunt Joined: Jun 25 2018 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 151 |
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John, thanks for your observations and comments - much appreciated.
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kar6666
Recruit Joined: Jan 05 2016 Location: California, Mo Status: Offline Points: 53 |
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Years ago a old carbine collector friend of mine told me he thought some late WRAs may be original with the "diamond D" type bands and some also had factory applied rotary safeties. I didn't really agree but I also knew he had handled a lot more carbines than I had so maybe he was right all the time.
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allend
Recruit Joined: Feb 28 2016 Location: ohio Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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When were the type 3 bands used marked w?
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4657 |
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I believe they were postwar. There is an article on the Winchester"Box of ten" with various bands and safeties mentioned. The Winchester 6-7 million block update lists other bands on original carbines. I wonder how many people removed and replaced with what they thought to be correct to only remove an original. Think about it, If the Cowles band was the only original then why are there not that many around? Would rebuild take off a good part and put on a replacement if they did not have to? |
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Never by Winchester, but have seen them listed as both wartime and postwar replacements. |
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kar6666
Recruit Joined: Jan 05 2016 Location: California, Mo Status: Offline Points: 53 |
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The only W marked bands I ever remember seeing were on two bbls another carbine collector friend of mine had. I don't remember a lot about except they had the same front sight cuts as a IBM bbl. I guess they probably had a P proof on them and were not proofed the same as a WRA bbl. would have been. My friend was sure they were WRA because of the W mark on the band. He hunted for years for a very late receiver to mount them. I remember he found a 6 million + receiver like new and mounted one. He died a few years ago and I remember seeing his son trying to sell that same carbine at a gunshow. I didn't have the heart to tell him that the great looking late WRA was just a parts gun. I don't know if he sold it or not I just said that I couldn't use it.
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watchdog49
On Point Joined: Jul 05 2018 Location: columbia MO Status: Offline Points: 45 |
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So, I have a Winchester carbine with serial # 6,484,xxx. It appears to have been thru a postwar rebuild, but now I am wondering about the Type 3 barrel band. Looks to me like the carbine was initially outfitted with a type 3 band, because the firing proof is not covered by the type 3 band currently installed. But, I always have assumed the current band is a replacement, because it is marked JM. Now I'm wondering -- could this band be the one original to the rifle, or is it definitely a replacement?
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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Someone could probably search CMP for Brian's posting emphatically saying either the W or low C bands (can't remember which) were a USGI contract, and absolutely post war. Shouldn't be a hard find on that forum.
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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I actually read that post the other day, it was about a CMP member swearing that the dimple welded, low C was for sure used by Winchester even though Brian repeatedly shot the guy down. There are some that will believe only what they want to believe in relation to their milsurp weapons. |
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Looks like it's been there a very long time, to the point where I think it's possibly original. The barrel markings are for sure where you'd expect to see them on a WRA carbine with a type 3 band. |
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