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LOTS of problems with a Winchester..1st range trip

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Charles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 7:49pm
Min wax makes a product I have used very successfully called Wood Hardener
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LMTmonoMan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 8:00pm
Found this video yesterday on another forum, and it's a good watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF0qH_zvfdU

It applies to this thread particularly due to it's content being on the carbine's reliability reputation.

I found it very interesting to hear Ken say that Winchesters back in the "all carbines were shooters" days, were shunned over the much better functioning Inlands. This is not the first time I've read that Winchester had a rather lack luster reputation for their carbines.

On page 18 of Ruth's THE M1 CARBINE OWNER'S GUIDE, " Initial testing at Aberdeen Proving Ground indicated that National Postal Meter had the best over-all test record for military Carbines produced during WWII."

He goes on to say that Underwood barrels excelled, and gas piston and nut fit were superior. He mentions Inland being equal to the quality of Underwood in key areas. Then he goes to say the tight tolerances maintained by Winchester made it difficult to fit other mfg'ers gas piston nuts.

Just some random thoughts of mine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote James K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:10pm
I have used over a pint of Plastic steel on a military duce and a half engine freeze crack down side of block, water manifold, air compressor head and water pump. Sanded down and a bit of rattle can black and hard to see and no leaks. Gun stocks and even sat on violins I use Brownels acraglass for cracks. I use the blue painters masking tape cut strips to line each side of crack. This is the "Dam". Put a bead of Acraglass on the crack then flex the wood. Keep flexing and a line will appear on the Acraglass bead. This means the glass is getting into the crack, by doing this the glass will chase the length of the crack. Have done many things with Acraglass but never have done a proper rifle action/barrel bedding, as of yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2018 at 10:34pm
I was referring to the width between the receiver lugs where the recoil plate tab fit. Just concerned that the loose fit might have caused wear in this area. I think that the same movement might have caused the wear in your stock. It looks a little beat up where the side of the receiver fits.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote James K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2018 at 2:38pm
monoMan, I greatly appreciate the four forum pages of problems and opinions of highly qualified forum members. I write down notes in my spiral note book of great suggestions. To me, learning of the carbine parts history of rebuilds and later owners of what they have done, have helped people like me understanding these problems. Will PM you with a token.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2018 at 3:42pm
Don't know if I missed something in this thread so I'll add to it an article from TM 9-1276 TO39A-5AD-2   I just finisher reading about light strikes etc. The need to replace the piston nut with a type #2 counter board to increase thrust of operating slide.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2018 at 11:11pm
Originally posted by Charles Charles wrote:

Min wax makes a product I have used very successfully called Wood Hardener


When you first posted this, I thought I knew what it was...thinking it was a putty or filler for wood, but I just now googled it and found out it is totally different.

https://www.minwax.com/wood-products/maintenance-repair/minwax-high-performance-wood-hardener

Do you just apply it under and around the recoil plate area, or do you apply it at other points in the stock? Does it stain if you were to place some on the outside of the stock?

Thanks for the heads up Charles, as this product sounds very useful.

Originally posted by James K James K wrote:

I have used over a pint of Plastic steel on a military duce and a half engine freeze crack down side of block, water manifold, air compressor head and water pump. Sanded down and a bit of rattle can black and hard to see and no leaks. Gun stocks and even sat on violins I use Brownels acraglass for cracks. I use the blue painters masking tape cut strips to line each side of crack. This is the "Dam". Put a bead of Acraglass on the crack then flex the wood. Keep flexing and a line will appear on the Acraglass bead. This means the glass is getting into the crack, by doing this the glass will chase the length of the crack. Have done many things with Acraglass but never have done a proper rifle action/barrel bedding, as of yet.


Thanks for the information James. I've heard of Acraglass, but only with regards to bedding. Your procedure for chasing smalls cracks with the "dam" and the acraglass sounds excellent for any future hairline cracks I find on a stock.

Originally posted by jackp1028 jackp1028 wrote:

I was referring to the width between the receiver lugs where the recoil plate tab fit. Just concerned that the loose fit might have caused wear in this area. I think that the same movement might have caused the wear in your stock. It looks a little beat up where the side of the receiver fits.


Thanks again Jack for the continually help, here is the measurement of the area that I think you are referring to...it's .5265"



I need to get a copy of Kuhnhausen's The U.S. 30 Caliber Gas Operated Carbines: A Shop Manual so that I might have a better idea of what is and isn't in spec.


Originally posted by Charles Charles wrote:

Don't know if I missed something in this thread so I'll add to it an article from TM 9-1276 TO39A-5AD-2   I just finisher reading about light strikes etc. The need to replace the piston nut with a type #2 counter board to increase thrust of operating slide.


That's an excellent data point to add for reference to this thread, as I found out about that two or three weeks ago when checking, replacing, and cleaning the piston chamber. I noticed my new pack of replacement USGI parts that I posted earlier in this thread had the type 1 in it, which was different than the type 2 that was already on the rifle. That lead me to refer back to Riesch's U.S. M1 CARBINES, WARTIME PRODUCTION book to read which one I should go with for better reliability or shootablility, he refers to exactly what you do with regards to TM-9, and improving M2 operation specifically....


I haven't read the TM 9-1276 from start to finish yet, but have skimmed most of it. Haven't read about this change relating to LP strikes though. Might be cause the copy I'm reading isn't updated or something.

I've been reading it here....
http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Manuals/TM9-1276_1947.pdf




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 18 2018 at 11:28pm
Originally posted by James K James K wrote:

monoMan, I greatly appreciate the four forum pages of problems and opinions of highly qualified forum members. I write down notes in my spiral note book of great suggestions. To me, learning of the carbine parts history of rebuilds and later owners of what they have done, have helped people like me understanding these problems. Will PM you with a token.


I agree 100% about getting so many Carbine experts to share their wealth of knowledge in this thread. Your gesture was amazingly kind, and will be very useful. It truly brightened my day, and I sincerely appreciate it.

Having both you and Markdam weigh in now to let our forum Gurus know that I'm not the only one their helping out is also great to read.

I'm a member of a number of different forums as I've mentioned earlier, and while this is the smallest forum I'm a member of in terms of membership...it is without question, the most no B.S., all tech, no bickering forum I visit. It is also the most friendly, and eager to help out a new member forum I visit. This is truly an excellent resource for learning, and meeting new friends.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote markdam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2018 at 12:28am
I get my carbine out of the 10-day waiting period jail this week and I am verymuch looking forward too   starting my own thread with my data sheet 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2018 at 8:28pm
Well gents, I got to have a mini X-Mas in May thanks to two incredibly kind, and helpful members on this forum. I'm truly humbled by both Dan (New2brass), and James (James K) acts of kindness, as it reminds me to always strive to be better person.


Thanks to Dan's fantastic gesture of sending me a new recoil plate, this thread, and the Winchester can begin traveling again towards a final resolution to the problem.

This new recoil plate is a significantly nicer, and more scarce part than the one it replaces which is a post war cast RIA model according to Jack's great info on page 3. As to not waste an potential learning opportunity for myself, and perhaps others, I took several pics to compare the differences b/t the post war replacement recoil plate, and a war time replacement recoil plate.

While trying to identify who's code was P-LW, I came across this thread on another forum which has some well respected members weighing in.
http://forums.thecmp.org/archive/index.php/t-36262.html

No final conclusion was made, but two likely manufactures were named.

Obviously I've yet to function check it through live fire, or through the flour rub test, but I did attach it to the assembled receiver while out of the stock, and tested the fit on it. I've read before somewhere.....you shouldn't be able to shake off your recoil plate once you seat it onto the receiver, and with this new one, it's exactly that. I can't shake off this new one with light movement, however my original one wouldn't stay on the receiver tab even when laying still in any other position but vertical. This seems like it could indeed make a huge difference in keeping the proper alignment of the assembled receiver inside of the stock. I will report back both on the rub test, and if it passes there, then it's on to the final check which will be live firing.

left is war time model, right is post war RIA model


Left is RIA post war, right is war time model


left is RIA post war, right is war time model


The new fitment of recoil plate to receiver tab...



Last, but certainly not least for this post, I'd just like to show off my new mag that was so generously sent to me by James. To many it might just look like a normal Colt AR 15 magazine, but from my early research thus far...this might be one of the 1960s era Colt magazines. To me it's akin to adding one of the earliest known made Winchester M1 carbine magazines to your special collection. I also foolishly sold my oldest OEM 20rd Colt magazine that came with my first AR, a Colt 6520 (it wasn't that old though, circa early 2000s)....so this certainly makes up for that mistake that I won't make again.




If good karma does exist in this world, count on it coming to both Dan & James for literally paying it forward! Thanks again gentlemen for both of those wonderful, and very generous acts of kindness. You guys easily made my day!





eta....
Originally posted by markdam markdam wrote:

I get my carbine out of the 10-day waiting period jail this week and I am verymuch looking forward too   starting my own thread with my data sheet


Big congratulations Mark, I see you got a very clean looking WRA. I'm also very glad to learn your first outing with it was trouble free. The only sad part of the story is that you had to do a 10 day waiting period for it which I assume is another one of California's many State gun laws.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote markdam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2018 at 8:44pm
Thanks LMT mono man and congratulations on a fine-looking MAG and more importantly the nice looking and hopefully better fitting recoil plate. Hopefully it will solve some if not all of your problems. Yes the 10-day waiting period for a curio Relic is daunting in my humble opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 6:15am
Well gents, unfortunately I'm in a holding pattern as of now after trying numerous "flour rub test" with both the new and old recoil plates, with everyone still making contact on the right side of the stock as shown in previous pictures. I've been so hesitate to update that part of the information as to not let down the many awesome members, and now friends in this thread whom have weighed in with so much help.   

I also had to admit to myself that I didn't really have a single clue when I bought this first carbine. Sure I spent a month or two trying to learn the red herring clues to look for, but I honestly had no clue firstly what a proper shooting carbine should look like, and measure at, and secondly what makes certain carbines more desirable than others besides the common "corrected" term (members here also help set me straight on that term/form of collecting). While I appreciate the effort that goes on with corrected carbines, I'm now seeing just how much history is getting stripped away from these rifles when trying to correct them. I've come to the conclusion that outside of the diehard carbine lover, historian, or the soldiers that used them post WWII, most folks don't put a single bit of worth on these rifles the moment they left the WWII theatre.

Upon first getting our rifle, I wanted to tap into it's subconscience to hear about all it's amazing stories, sadly we know that's not possibly. From there I figured I'd try to see If I could find out if this rifle had been at least partially "corrected" prior to me buying it, as I had some early hints that it had been due to having all main parts WRA, with a WRA/GHD marked stocked. So I call the gent I bought it from, told him it was a lemon basically but no worries, and then asked him for the rifle's provenance...he said he bought and sold rifles, and had no idea So the trail went cold......for a month or two

Flash forward to last night, and I decided to examine a marking I found on the rifle somewhere, that reignited the trail or history of this particular rifle.....for many, heck most members will surely know what the mystery mark is, and what it means, but for others it might be a fun little exercise.

I scoured the internet for other pics of this marking and while i found one or two, I couldn't find anything as detailed I the ones I'm gonna post below....




While I'd love a NIB 1943-45 USGI carbine, it sure would have lived a sad, boring life over it's 75yrs, while the other over 6million plus carbines have seen the world, fought in the hands of both good and bad guys, seen 3 major wars, and countless conflicts. somewhere
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 9:18am
Few more measurements, or areas that haven't fully been ruled out.

First off, the below pics show just how tight of a fit when the slide is centered inside the front stock well where it normal rubs the right side....wondering if this falls within specs or perhaps the stock has shrunk.



specific mic'd measurement: 1.2265"

Second area is the slide, more specifically the nub that keeps it attached to, and sliding along the guide track of the receiver.   They're is a nice amount of slope or play when handling the slide's handle at rest. From what I gather this is normal until you have a slide go off the rails literally. That said my research thus far indicated that mine might be a little to worn down. I'm wondering if having a loose or some wobble in my slide is the root of all evil.



Thanks gents in advance for any thoughts on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 9:27am
Looks to me that the marking is a double stamped Italian FAT stamp as discussed in this post http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/ibm-barrel-markings_topic3419.html

Now as far as your carbine still not working right, I believe a different stock is worth a try. As mentioned before I have a unmarked pot belly, in really good shape, that I can send your way pretty cheap, PM me if interested.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LMTmonoMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 12:18pm
Wayne, thanks for the link, as that's an excellent, and informative read. I'm continually growing more and more frustrated with both Google, and Bing when trying to search subjects. It might just be me, but it seems like my results are not nearly as in depth as they used to be.

Every since we got the rifle, I've been staring at the mark, and the whole time I figured it was just some scratching marks. I guess the double stamping made it almost non legible. Either way I found it very interesting for my own unique curiosities with regards to the rifle's history, and what appears to be someone's "correction" job. The Stock has no FAT marking, but it could have been lightly sanded at one time....as the wra/ghd cartouche mark is not very indented anymore. This makes me think that this was CMP rifle at one time??? If so, I assume I can pay for a search on the rifle's paperwork?

eta: I've read some opinions that if the barrel has the FAT marking, that it denotes the armory changed the barrel. Any opinions on this?

On my sample size of one, I'm not sure that's accurate. I have a Winchester barrel that to my knowledge is correct for the Winchester receiver's serial, also has the rare L marked front sight that I believe is correct, shows heavy wear on outside ring that matches the barrel area around it. If my "corrector" theory is right about this rifle's previous owners, I don't think they went to the trouble of finding/buying a real L marked front sight. To me it looks like someone just wanted it to be all WRA regardless of which block of parts they were in.


RE: stock problem....thanks brother for the offer, and I'm still trying to figure out where to go from here. At this point, I'm not sure if I should keep throwing money at this rifle, or just keep staying patient going to every local gunshow, and watching CMP forum's EE for that one perfect carbine for our needs.   My dream is that one of these day's, I'm gonna be that guy that gets a $800-1000 7million WRA, super clean Rockola, or even a $2k M1A1. Those are my three unicorns right now:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by LMTmonoMan LMTmonoMan wrote:


eta: I've read some opinions that if the barrel has the FAT marking, that it denotes the armory changed the barrel. Any opinions on this?


I have read the same about the stamp on the barrel, I do not know for sure if that is a fact. I managed to get 10 carbines from the CMP when they were selling the Italian returns, of those 10 only 4 had the FAT stamp on the stock and 2 or 3 have the stamp on the barrel.

I believe that if you contact the CMP they can tell you if they sold your carbine, not sure they would charge for that, I read on another forum recently that someone just did that very same thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:22pm
An "L" marked front sight would not be appropriate for your serial range. I wonder how many people swapped out original front sights due to poor reporting in some books.
 
I have never seen a FAT stamp on the rear bevel, then again I have not seen many. The few Italian returns I have were all mixmasters, Maybe someone knows more but I think all the Italians were mixmasters. Italy got theirs 51-63 so probably rebuilt before receiving
 
If not the Italians seemed to refinish them as they seem dark. Unlike the bavarians who marked every part and put them back together. I doubt the Italians did them one at a time, most probably in large batches, so no way to account for which part belonged to which receiver.
 
The two carbines I have with FAT marked barrels it would seem that they are both correct for the receiver they are on. Either very lucky, someone corrected, or stamp on barrel not due to replacement of barrel.
Could be different dates they stamped in different locations or if the carbine needed repair and they checked the barrel they stamped it.
 
With yours It appears maybe 2 different dates? on left side it looks like 73 but a 6 on bottom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:39pm
Dan, I don't think the stamp is on the rear bevel. It looks to me like a highly magnified image of the top of the barrel next to the receiver. My QHMC also has a similar FAT stamp along with a correct barrel for the receiver (see below). I go along with the theory that no barrel change occurred. Also, I've never seen a FAT stamp on any other metal surface on a carbine other than the barrel. I agree that they probably refinished the metal, either that or they took very good care of them while they had them. Maybe both.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:46pm
Thanks Jack! thought I was looking at rear bevel and recoil plate.
If there is that drastic color change from barrel to receiver then maybe his was switched out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2018 at 1:47pm
Good point. Earlier pictures show the receiver being the typical greenish color whereas the barrel is darker.
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