LOTS of problems with a Winchester..1st range trip

Hey guys, love your forum, and the membership....thanks so much for all the info I've been reading over the last 3 weeks non stop on here. So much great knowledge!

So without further ado, and doing so in as concise of manner as possible I will list the rifle specs, and the problems I need help working out. Today I took a Winchester mix carbine to the range for the first time. I just bought it two weeks ago for my father who had his stolen some 40yrs ago. It's a special rifle to say the least for the both of us.   I waited two weeks to shoot it in order to fully strip, inspect, fill out a carbine data sheet, and then lube it properly. I also needed some time to get a few types of ammo, and a few new/different types of mags. Below you will see the extent I was able to break the rifle down in the first picture (all got disassembled outside the bolt extractor/ejector, and unstaking the gas piston).



Pictured below is the complete Carbine Data sheet for this rifle, denoting the particular parts that might be relevant to you guys who potentially can help me.



Now that you guys know the rifle's specs....here are the types of ammo and mags I used today....regardless of which mag I tried, I experienced malfunctions that to me at least seemed unrelated to mag issues.

AMMO:   Lake City USGI Surplus Ball Carbine M! ammo 110gr FMJ
      
        PRVI PPU 110gr FMJ brass cased

        TULAmmo 110gr. FMJ steel cased


MAGs:    3 USGI excellent condition 15rd (1 winc/2 marked "u")

        1 USGI NOS 30rd unmarked mag

        2 brand new Korean 30rd mags



So now you know the rifle, mags, and ammo....last part is the actual malfunctions. Out of 100rds fired 50-60rds malfunctioned in one way or another. There were 3 main types of malfs I experienced.

1. The first type of malfunction I experienced, and by far the most prevalent to occur was light primer strikes resulting in the round not firing, needing to be ejected, and another fresh round chambered in order to clear. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 40 of them were light primer strikes. I was ultimately able to recycle most of the light primer struck rounds except for a few I saved to take pics of in order to post here for help. The pics below illustrate the light primer strikes in comparison to a couple of actual spent cases with primer strike marks that were deep enough to trigger ignition of the primer




2. The second type of malfunction I had was stovepipe jams resulting in a simple flick of the thumb to clear, however once the case was cleared, bolt sent home with next round chambered....it would always then be a light primer strike. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 5 were stovepipe jams.

3. The third type of malfunction I had was basically a bolt over base malfunction resulting in the mag needing to be removed, clearing of the round, reinserting the mag, and then chambering a new round. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 3 were bolt over base type malfs.

4. Lastly, the fourth type of malf I experienced were stuck cases in the barrel, requiring a wood dowel and heavy tap in order to clear. Out of appx. 50 malfunctions, 2 were stuck cases. Noteworthy is the fact that both stuck cases happened with the TULAmmo steel cases.


So in summery,

50 malfunctions in a little less than 100 rounds fired.

40 were light primer strikes

5 were stovepipe jams

3 were bolt over base malfs

2 were stuck cases


Finally, and why I shouldn't have ever bought my first boxes of steel crap.....3 split cases occurring only with the cheap TULAmmo steel cases stuff. Never seen this happen before, not sure if it's ammo, or it's a headspace/chamber issue???/




PLEASE help gents, I mainly own Colt/LMT/KAC rifles these days, and they go honestly thousands and thousands of rounds without 1 failure, year after year (i know apples to oranges, but either way a rifle should function correctly given it's quality built). I have little experience in dealing with problematic guns, and this is the first firearm I've ever owned that jammed right off jump street. Guess I've been lucky til now:)

Looks like #4 on the datasheet for the mag catch.  Doesn't have the "arm" for 30 round mag support.Did this occur with 30 rnd mag or 15s too?

I spend a lot of time cleaning my S'G' for the sheer fun of it. You problems sound more like dirt, out of speck. expanded chamber, the split cartridges indicate this. I have been using TulAmmo by the thousands without any misfires.
Check the possibility of a re barrel and overhaul the bolt.
I hope your able to get it working properly, they deserve all the TLC you can give.

Well after spending all morning first calling all firearm stores, and smiths in the area....every single one of them didn't have either a bolt disassembly tool, nor did they have a .30carbine headspace gauge.   

After another firearm forum also suggested potential headspace issues, and when I further called a few older gents who specialize in these rifles, one a Col. whom I believe was Special Forces in Vietnam, and another gent that just knows these guns like a map also said it could be a possibility. One had the headspace gauge and bolt tool, the other had a bolt tool + another method for us to check headspace.....and both offered to have me over to their own personal lands/homes and would use their tools and know how until I had a sewing machine..., hardly met these older gentlemen. MERICA baby! With the idea of buying my own one time use $100 headspace guage for a carbine.....plus potential other parts that might be required if the headspace isn't the issue after all...I was really starting to question if I got had for a cpl hundred on a gun that someone knew had a catastrophic or major defect such as headspace on a carbine where it would have to be rebarreled or be matched to a bolt, and obviously that usually means one needs to buy/own multiple bolt groups in order to find one to match. So that problem would have been essentially a game over for me..I'd accept I got con'd and sale at a significant loss.

So as you can imagine, I was slowly spiraling down the toilet of a rare M1 carbine - Mk Lemon model.....when I said screw it let's do this inspection again. I started with the bolt given I just now learned a new handy way to pop the bolt by simply maneuvering the slide over the lugs on the bolt.   Once I popped it out, it was very dirty already after only 60 or so rounds we fired yesterday. That called for it to be soaked in MPro7 for 30minutes, then I scrubbed the heck out of the crevis and boltface, especially the extractor area. Once I got it real clean on the bolt face I went to examine this time using a 10x magnifier to better help see problems.....PRAISE Carbine Williams.

Houston...we have figured out the problem, it's one helluva extractor lip failure, and once you guys see the pics you'll wonder how I was able to even shoot a single round given how the cracked extractor is bent into the bolt face, covering a significant area of the bolt face where the bullet should seat.

I'm currently researching the appropriate, or best functioning USGI extractor model to buy today online. Also where to get one would be fantastic as well. This has to be the 1000% cultprit, but do you guys have any part suggestions that I should buy to have on hand?

SO RELEIVED! THANKS gentlemen for all the wonderful replies and help. You guys make the community truly feel like one, the generosity in lending a helping hand from some of you to basically a stranger is a model of behavior we should all try to add into our own lives.

PICS: nasty failure of the extractor..


side view


Top view

The face of the ejector looks like a Type 1 to me. I don't think it's damaged. However, the damaged extractor could definitely cause light strikes probably due to failure to fully lock into battery. Did you notice any bulging at the base of the cartridge?

Still think the recoil spring might also be a contributor. I enlarged your image and measured the spring compared to other parts of known dimensions and determined that it was only 9 3/4" long. If I'm wrong, never mind. But please do check this or you still may have problems after replacing the extractor.

Also, my only experience with steel cased ammo was on my son's AR15. He wanted to try a box of Tula. We were only able to fire one round. The case stuck like those you reported. We also had to drive it out with a dowel. We were lucky, the extractor was okay but there was an extractor shaped chunk missing from the rim of the Tula cartridge. Needless to say, that was the last time we tried to use steel case ammo...anywhere.

jackp1028 wrote: The face of the ejector looks like a Type 1 to me. I don't think it's damaged.

jackp, Agree, after looking at it again I believe you are correct, type 1 ejector. I guess the angle of the picture had me thinking it looked odd.

You bring up a good point. As far as I know, there is nothing documenting the reason behind the original Type 1 ejector design. There is documentation suggesting that subsequent changes were made to improve ejection angle, to prevent ejected cases from hitting the operating slide and also to reduce manufacturing costs. The revision table on the original engineering drawings should note the reason for change but all Ordnance engineering drawings I've seen have been redacted to remove this information.

FWIW, here's a previous post on Hammer Spring coil count.

I also had some issues with my 1943 IBM .30M1 with my reloads. When using factory PRVI ammo I never had a problem, but when I started reloading using S&B primers I sometimes needed to fire them up to 3x before they actually fired. After replacing the S&B small rifle primers with Federal I never ever had a misfire. My armourer told me the S&B primers (look like brass) are a little bit harder than the Federal ones (that look like nickel plated).

I just set 4 bolts upright like in the picture and tried to view them from the same angle.