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LOTS of problems with a Winchester..1st range trip |
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painter777
Hard Corps Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
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Posted: Jul 16 2018 at 4:08pm |
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I'm with Wayne,
Still have that want to fix it feeling. When mentioned about having to twist the barrel band to catch the band spring, got me to wondering if the band itself may have been bent or distorted. So when locked down it was binding/pulling the barrel to the right...... causing the slide box to rub. Damn, it's like having to sell off a car you love and seeing it drive away. It will take a while to get back to normal... LMT, When ready, start a new post for your new 6 dig. So long............ CH-P777
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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monoMan, I really hate to hear that the "lemon" Winchester is gone as I have really enjoyed taking part in and more importantly learning from this thread. I still really want to know why that damn gun does not function right. With that said I am glad to hear that the seller treated you so fairly and was willing to take the carbine back, he sounds like a good man. Now get that Inland to the range and tell us how it shoots.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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LMTmonoMan
Grunt Joined: Mar 18 2018 Location: AL Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Well Gentlemen, Finality...Closure....The End. I hate how so many "I need help" threads on forums never find closure due to most likely the OP finding a solution or moving on and never updating the thread. Very frustrating when troubleshooting on the internet. So while it's not the ending myself, or I'm sure you guys wanted to hear....it's nonetheless the conclusion, or resolution to our epic journey trying to fix one tragically flawed Winny.
So today I heard back from the gentlemen who sold me the rifle originally, and he offered to refund my money at the show. In return for his offer I felt the need to provide him with a data sheet of the rifle, 50/100yd targets, a complete list of parts replaced, and lastly a full run down of all the different steps we took while troubleshooting this rifle, and what the problem finally boiled down to. Luckily I always save everything that I get with a rifle nowadays, and was able to give him the original hang tag, and all assys he included with it I felt I gave him back a better, cleaner, and more valuable rifle in terms of a few replacement parts that I upgraded over the ones it came with, plus replacing all the old springs. That said, I told him he was in no way obligated obviously to refund me or do anything for that matter, but instead he was a very honorable, and classy gentlemen, and not only refunded my money, but educated me some on garands. Ultimately I walked away feeling like I not only had satisfaction to my problematic rifle, but made a new friend in process. I really can't say enough about how this seller handled the situation, and about the quality of his character that he displayed to me. It was tragically satisfying seeing that rifle leave my ownership/stewardship of it's place in history. On one hand, I now have an Inland that I couldn't be more thrilled about for a great deal, but I lost a rifle that I felt had some aspects to it that made it special at least for myself. I admit, I'm a sucker for a cartouche WWII stock, and it still had a visible cartouche. Equally special to me, was that the stock had such beautiful tiger striping, and reddish glow to it when the light hit it. The spring tube is another reason that I'm quite sad about losing the rifle, along with the recent discovery that it prob. spent some of it's life with the Italians. I also appreciated the L front sight. Ultimately none of that matters for a guy like me who first and foremost loves to shoot firearms. Having an unreliable gun, regardless of it's coolness, or history is completely unacceptable for myself. Constant malfunctions definitely ruin one's shooting experience at the range imho. He said that if and when he figures it out, he'll be sure to tell me, and thus I will tell you guys. Ultimately it has got to be a receiver/barrel issue imho. The seller, and myself at the end discussed that without this rifle, there's no way that I would have come here to find you guys and be schooled by the best, spent an hour or two a day everyday since March reading about carbines, and ultimately developed what I know consider a very proficient knowledge base for both buying, and fixing carbines. All the above leads me to yesterday where after many months of wanting and looking for another carbine to buy, I finally was confident, educated enough, and found that "just right" goldilocks carbine. I never would have gotten to yesterday's new carbine purchase without this forums members who have continually blessed me with their time, effort, energy, and amazingly deep knowledge base. You guys have without question made a new school AR15 younger fellow in myself into an uber carbine fan. I'll also try my best to remember the attitudes, and willingness of all of you to pass along the knowledge, and pay it forward approach to those younger or less knowledgeable, in the spirit of keeping alive a rifle that was a protector of America, and World democracy for so many years of service. I now feel the responsibility of helping to ensure this rifle's unique, and very special place in history so that future generations will always know of the WAR BABY! To all my friends now on here, THANKS! |
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LMTmonoMan
Grunt Joined: Mar 18 2018 Location: AL Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Well Dan, I think we can rule out the slide now thanks to your great suggestion.
Repeated the slide rub/flour test, only this time like you said I replaced the WRA late model slide with the earlier Inland slide I just got.....same exact result, although this slide seemed to fit slightly better than the other even though it doesn't matter ultimately. Has to be a crooked barreled action at this point, doesn't it? |
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LMTmonoMan
Grunt Joined: Mar 18 2018 Location: AL Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Will do brother, thanks for such a fast response.
I'll also submit the data sheet for the rifle, as I recently redid it with my better understanding and knowledge of carbines. FWIW... Carbine report for the Hoover, Alabama Gunshow: Carbines viewed: 20+ USGI mixmasters ranging from WRAs as high as $1200 for an all WRA/non correct model, to as low as $750 for a beat up looking Inland. Surprisingly almost all these carbines were priced fair to slightly below in some cases to the current market prices. 2 fully corrected beautiful USGIs, 1 really nice Bavarian for $1150, 1 Universal, and 1 commercial carbine that was a blinged out pistol looking abomination(factory model I believe too). 3 or 4 WRAs, 1 Rockola. No IPs, or unique receiver carbines that I saw. Only 1 import marked carbine that I could see, and it was an extremely deep Blue sky import mark. 1 M1A1 that imho was fake due to the rivets, new looking/feeling leather, and how crisp the marking were on the buttplate. $3100 for an Inland in a repro 1 M1A1 stock sans rifle that imho was authentic, and in fantastic condition. $1600 Carbine parts: Fantastic for a gunshow. Two large tables with huge sections and tackle boxes full of carbine parts, most common, but some rare stuff. About 15 USGI WWII cartouche stocks from various makers, several high wood and I cut models as well. Prices ranged from $200-450 for those stocks. Over 30 various replacement stocks in mostly good condition ranging from $25 to $200. The one I bought came from this lot. There was nice CMP cartouche stock with the I cut but was north of $150 so I declined. Lots of mags to be had, NOS, used, 30rd mags from FN?, other 30rd mags, Korean mags, 5/10rd mags, etc. 2 very nice looking carbine cases, one of which I almost bought. Carbine ammo: Decent, but not abundant. I found several of the 120rd on stripper clips bandoleers. One was $60 the other $80. Several vendors had a box or several of the typical brown box USGI lake city ball ammo for as low as $25(which I might go back tom. and buy some of), and as high as $45 a box. Various commercial factory loads throughout the ammo vendors at the show as well. Bubba'd/Fubar'd Carbine modifications spotted: 1 otherwise fantastic looking WRA with most parts being WRA....including the type 3 rear sight, however someone sadly cut half of the peep sight's circle in half to make it more into a " U notch " rear sight. 1 nice mixmaster USGI that had it's stock sporterized ETA: 1 neat M1 carbine looking toy gun as best as I could tell.....too many people in front of the booth, and never got back around to viewing it. Looked like it was quite old, and a bit larger in scale than a real carbine. pretty sure it's this one.... http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/dummy-carbine_topic1373.html |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4627 |
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Now that you have a second carbine try swapping the slide and see if it hangs up or do rub test.
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LMTmonoMan
Grunt Joined: Mar 18 2018 Location: AL Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Dan, thank you so much for such an extensive, and educational response.
Also my apologies to everyone for the delay, however I was waiting on today's gunshow which is Alabama's best especially for carbines imo. My plan was to get a new stock today, go home and perform the rub test, and see if it fails this last test that rules out the stock, and pretty much any other problem that can be fixed without buying and replacing a major component/s. Here is the result of the new stock's rub test with the same WRA barreled action. Almost exactly the same rub if not worse..... (bottom one is the new FAT82 stock) The reason I waited til today was because the gunshow dealer that sold me this rifle back in March told me he would be returning again to today's show, and that if I was still having problems come see him. Now that I know I can't sell the rifle as a complete rifle, and after today can't sell most of the major parts like the receiver or barrel due to not knowing which one is faulty, and not wanting to pass my problem on to another person.....I could use some opinions on how I should handle this. Knowing all the history on this rifle, the fact that the seller is a regular dealer/seller at gunshows, and lastly that he told me to come see him if I hadn't fixed it by this weekend's show.......what would you ask for or expect from the seller? Personally I'm taking full responsibility for being ignorant, however now that I know I can't even in good conscience part the rifle out to get my money back, I'm wondering if I should indeed go see the seller tomorrow and see what we can work out. Am I crazy? Lastly, knock on wood....I think I got nice carbine this time for a good deal. Amazingly clean, 935xxx Inland/ with 10/43 inland barrel, that looks unmolested with all parts having the same matching finish. Haven't done a data sheet yet, but it's certainly a shooter, and a mixmaster. Also I was very happy with the new stock purchase with the Birch potbelly FAT82. Sadly all of that is overshadowed with this lingering problem, and final resolution that I've got a damn wall hanger! Thanks for reading gents:) |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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Agree, although I do use that component program on that website, as a starting point, the parts info sure does appear to mirror the info in Reisch's book. |
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4627 |
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Most books were printed with information thought to be correct at time of press. Sometimes new information comes to light that changes that information. With Reisch I would never use his serial numbers as a guide, even beyond that there are few absolutes when it comes to carbines. The Carbine club has been researching and collecting data for 40 years. This is mostly driven by research of company documents and reports from the national archives. With carbines there is no serial number start for a certain part nor an end serial that can be used as a absolute guide. Many books use calculations to determine serial dates on the assumption that they were assigned X amount of serial numbers and that they produced for Y months. X/Y will give you an approximation. Did they account for scrapped serial numbers? What about Underwood and others that produced serial number blocks out of order? The fault here is that production was slow in begining for the manufactures and numbers increased to the height of production in late 43. Then keep in mind production was quickly haulted for most in April 44 Parts were dumped into a bin and the worker would grab tha piece needed and assemble. as the bins got low a worker would dump in more parts. So as you can imagine that some parts could spend some time at the bottom of the bin. We refer to this as first in, last out. This is why we sometimes see parts of an earlier type used in small bands in later serial numbers. So lets look at CCNL 336 Winchester first block update. We see that the only front sights contracted to be made for Winchester were from the Lyman Gun Sight Corp. Winchester sights have a shape that is unique. THis was addressed in CCNLs 32-2 and 230-9. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/unusual-markings-on-parts_topic1270.html has a picture of the curvature of the Lyman profile as well as a possible L marked in the wrong location Now this is where the clubs data sheets come into play. We take the data sheets on what we believe or know to be original as left the factory carbines to figure what serial ranges X or Y part type(s) or marking(s) was consitently used for what serial number range. So the sights that Lyman marked with an L mostly appear in the 1.06 to 1.13 range with some earlier, some possibly later. Now lets turn our attention to CCNL 337 article on Winchester's serial number usage. In a tremendous find Larry Ruth obtained copies of the Winchester finishing room log book which has the last serial numbers applied to the receiver and on what day. 1006196 was the last serial applied on Nov 12 1942 113xxxx serial numbers were applied from June 18-29 So does mid 43 sound correct, maybe a better simplified term should have been first half of 43? or better late 42 to mid 43. or maybe he should has said "till mid 43". None perfect, but you have to consider what you are trying to get across in a book with limited space. It seems that everyone runs to the websight you mention. My challange to anyone is to see if any of the serial ranges for parts are different than that of Reisch's book. I believe the Author of that website basically wrote a program around Reisch's book with some information on other pages taken elsewhere. Odd that you find that no winchesters were made in 43?????????? So on to your carbine. If the patina matched on exposed parts then it may have original barrel. Being that the rear of barrel was covered by the hand guard I would expect less patina. Pictures show things different than what the eye sees. So the stark color differance can be due to how the camera sees it. Early on I asked members if they saw what I saw on your data sheet. The spring tube was out of place. They are usually seen up to the 1.21 serial range. One possibility is that the receiver got sidetracked durring production and finished later. Another possibility is that when deep drilling the bit wandered and broke through the side of the receiver. To salvage the receiver they simply machined the side off and made it a spring tube. If you have not done so yet please submit the data sheet to datasheet@uscarbinecal30.com so Bob can log your serial as having a springtube. If he has anything interesting in the records to share he will contact you. Did I miss anything? |
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LMTmonoMan
Grunt Joined: Mar 18 2018 Location: AL Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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When I first noticed this slight issue, I immediately went to study receiver types as my spring tube has the rectangle cutout, however my WRA springtube receiver doesn't have the tab, a second hole, or a hole period that is drilled all the way through. The inside channel of the spring tube rails is flush Again, Dan will probably come drop a knowledge correction bomb on me after saying this, or you...,or one of the other gurus in this thread will, but based on all my reading, and my actual receiver.....I believe my receiver is a WRA spring tube Type 1-C. According to Riesch (Pg 16), this rare type of WRA receiver eliminated the two hole design thereby strengthening the receiver, and diminishing the number of cracked receivers. Once I learned this I took a big sigh of relieve as I had read prior to learning which springtube model I had....that WRA spring tube receivers were prone to crack where the spring tube track/rail was welded on. Mine is exactly like this BEAUTIFUL Bavarian early WRA's receiver....wonder if the owner is a member, as I'd love to see more pics, and see if he ever shoots it....http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/carbineGBB_lus.html Then here is mine... |
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jackp1028
Hard Corps Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Cloudcroft, NM Status: Offline Points: 1273 |
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There is a rectangular hole in the spring tube that has to line up with a tab in the receiver channel. If you miss this it will torque the spring tube outward.
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JackP
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LMTmonoMan
Grunt Joined: Mar 18 2018 Location: AL Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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The last two are more indicative to how it really looks, for some reason that first one definitely looks worse than when I just now retried the setup. With my thumb perfectly holding the barrel down centered in the channel, then the slide sits pretty squarely and evenly, however if I just press the tip of the charging handle inward or against the receiver side, it then creates a slight angle of the slide like illustrated in that first pic, but just not as magnified as that pic makes it appear to be.
One thing I've thought about.....the way the spring tube interacts with the guide rod/recoil spring assembly....basically it often wants to slightly bow outward due to the tension of the separate parts, combined with the fact that the recoil spring tube isn't anchored to the receiver. I believe some torsional stress is being transferred to the slide to some degree whether this matters or not is unclear to me. It can sometimes be alleviated by rotating the spring tube until the "bow" faces more inward towards the receiver's side. |
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jackp1028
Hard Corps Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Cloudcroft, NM Status: Offline Points: 1273 |
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In the first image above your operating slide looks like it's not parallel to the stock. Is that the case or is it just the angle the picture was taken?
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JackP
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LMTmonoMan
Grunt Joined: Mar 18 2018 Location: AL Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Thanks again Wayne, and I can only imagine the awesomeness that is ten CMP carbines all from one round or release. Dare I ask how many carbines a man like you owns....even though they were all lost in a boating accident:) That must have given you a great perspective on the overall quality, and shooter-ability on the whole for the Italian CMP rifles. I too read about someone recently requesting info from the CMP. I also inquired about it in a thread on the CMP forum when I was tempted to buy an early 2000s CMP H&R SG Garand at a local gunshow that the seller didn't have paperwork on hand for.
You guys have just about everything in ya'lls carbine's collections! I should have posted a further away pic as Jack below is right, it's located at the very rear center area of my barrel where it meets the receiver face. I agree to me it looks like a 73 for sure, and your comment about it looking like two dates is inline with Wayne's double stamp observation. Perhaps it wasn't accidental, but a second visit to FAT for a rebuild.
Jack, as always your right on about where the marking is located. Fantastic picture by the way, and it's like one I took of a zoomed out look, and forgot to post. Yours is much better though, as mine is blurry..... Over on the CMP forum I read one or two members state that the quality of the Italian returns was high, they were properly stored, and some look to never have been used.
You two Detective's might be onto something ? The receiver is that patina green park'd finish, where the barrel underneath the stock/handguard is darker blackish color. However, where the barrel is exposed it has blended into looking more like the receiver, especially near the last inch or so.
Charlie, thanks so much for continually giving such in depth, and helpful replies. All of you gents have been so patient with me throughout this thread. I think you hit on something very important that I've noticed since day 1 of assembling this rifle....and that is the fitment of the barrel band once the handguard is installed. When I go to engage the spring detent with the band's detent hole, I have to twist the entire barrel band assembly slightly clockwise by a few degrees in order to engage the spring detent with the barrel band hole. Also important to note, is that when everything is assembled with the barrel band screw fully secured, my barrel doesn't line up evenly in the middle of the channel, rather it hugs the right side of the barrel channel just like the slide rubs the inside of the front right stock channel. To me it seems clearly either a case of some form of misalignment with the fully assembled barreled receiver, or the cheaper problem....the stock itself is misaligned or warped. The way I've had to twist downwards to engage the barrel band/spring detent is something that I almost made a quick video of to show you gents several times in the past, as it's hard to describe with words. Oddly enough, the only critical area that must be shimmed in order to make the rifle run 100% as it is now with whatever problem it has, is directly ontop of the stock bridge. If I only shim in the front barrel channel region, it doesn't seem to clearance the rifles's slide enough. Just a piece of ammo box cardboard folded in half is all it takes at the stock bridge. Even more perplexing is that later stocks, and M2 stocks removed the bridge area all together that seems to be such a critical area in relieving my problem. Few pics illustrating what you suggested...
Now that sounds like a really cool project, and if you don't mind....I'd love to see a pic or two of it when finished. Your one helluva handy man for sure, guess it's a requirement to be a Seabee though:) In regards to the slide being true, I did eyeball several times over, but also used a flat ruler along side it's arm, as well as on top of it's arm to make sure it was straight. I also get your underlying point as well, and it's well taken. At some point I imagine I've got to get either another stock, or another carbine to swap parts with in order to get this one running proper. Thanks for weighing in again James!
Wow Jack, excellent set of pics that really gives me a perfect picture of what spec looks like. Really appreciative of the effort and time you must have taken to set up 3 examples and photograph them for me/pubic interest. Talk about going the extra mile! Something is clearly off with mine.... eta...one more that better aligns with the ones you took: |
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jackp1028
Hard Corps Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Cloudcroft, NM Status: Offline Points: 1273 |
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LTMmonoMan, below are three examples of how various operating slides fit into various stocks. These carbines were fully assembled without the hand guards and the barrel band screws were tightened to secure the barrels. What does yours look like? Can you post a similar picture? As you can see, the slides are nearly centered with plenty of clearance on both sides.
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JackP
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James K
On Point Joined: Jan 12 2018 Location: Longview Wa. Status: Offline Points: 66 |
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I assume you eyeballed the straightness of your "W" slide. I have wasted a lot of time in the past two months doing something senseless As I like a straight grip military stock especially the Swedish Mauser and I missed a good pot belly because spent too much time at a parts table, so have been carving out a 1894 Swede stock to fit the Underwood 2.8 receiver. I used the underwood slide out of the 968xxx Inland as the underwood slide is more rounded at the bottom than the nice "W" slide I have, due to limited wood thickness for a slide in a 1894 stock. Dumb, Huh? Almost done and the straight stock seems to come up better to be a pointer. W5USMC if you read this, I would be interested in the pot belly if available, PM me.
Years ago was overhauling a D6C final drive and did not like the looks of the new bull gear so returned to dealership. Parts man says, "Jim, If you want good parts, you have to order good parts." meaning they offered a free inspection of parts before purchasing, the bull gear was not heat treated why it looked funny. Guess this is why am so interested in all these carbine parts talk and there is always good and not so good parts.
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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Agree, The barrels also appear correct for the 3 carbines that I have with the stamp on them. |
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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painter777
Hard Corps Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
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Stick the barreled receiver with the slide and op spring attached in the stock.
See that the barrel is resting in the center of the stocks nose/barrel channel. Now note if the slide has an even reveal on either side of the inner stock walls. Next try a cardboard shim under the barrel in the channel/nose to mimic the hang, as if your HG was installed. With your thumb hold the barrel in place so you have no side to side movement. Now try your flour test. If it rubs now, note the area inside. Then I'd re-flour and install the complete barreled receiver... with proper hang... and lock the hand guard down. Try it now.... if the hand guard, barrel band and band spring keep the barrel centered in the channel.. go ahead and give it another 'Rub' test. Sometimes you'll find the barrel band spring is set to deep or not deep enough, causing pull or push to one side when locked in to the barrel band. These springs can be shimmed under or tapped in farther, depending on the issue. Don't try to bend one.... they can snap off. When you have a full assembly after all looks well, give it that last flour test. No rub? Good to go. Rubbing? Stock needs some inside sanding. Good Luck, Charlie-Painter777 |
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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jackp1028
Hard Corps Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Cloudcroft, NM Status: Offline Points: 1273 |
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Good point. Earlier pictures show the receiver being the typical greenish color whereas the barrel is darker.
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JackP
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4627 |
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Thanks Jack! thought I was looking at rear bevel and recoil plate.
If there is that drastic color change from barrel to receiver then maybe his was switched out.
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