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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Posted: May 10 2020 at 8:22am |
Hmmm....The number before the wagon wheel is different, 2,3 and 9. PMI=Pearlitic Malleable cast iron. ARMASTEEL was a registered trademark (#0393916) GM used starting October of 1937. Here's a 4, 5, 6, 7 and 10: Some snippets (I need to go back and read the Doerfner CCNL article). In 1919, General Motors bought the common stock for 1.1 million dollars
acquiring three plants: Malleable Iron, Grey Iron Foundry, and Saginaw
Steering Gear. GM called the acquisition Saginaw Products Division of
General Motors Corporation. In 1936, Malleable Iron developed a pearlitic malleable iron formulation
suitable for casting automotive parts trade named Armasteel (sometimes
seen spelled ArmaSteel in GM documents). In November of 1941, due to some GM management shuffles, William Doerfner, generally credited with being the driving force behind the development of Armasteel and the General Manager of the Malleable Iron Division, became the General Manager of Saginaw Steering Gear. Conventional wisdom has it that the U.S. was totally unprepared for WWII – which is not completely accurate. The Industrial Services Division of the Ordnance Department was shopping around for non-traditional producers of weapons as early as 1937 applying the lessons learned in WWI regarding the traditional commercial and government facility’s inability to mass produce firearms and everything else needed in wartime. Saginaw Steering Gear was approached about the manufacture of machine guns and agreed to undertake an engineering study contract and provide sample weapons, drawings, tooling and the production data necessary to set up a plant for air cooled Browning .30 caliber machine guns. There was only one problem: the War Department had no funds available to pay for these services. When Saginaw began working on cast parts an interesting situation developed. In the normal order of business, parts drawings were produced at Rock Island Arsenal (RIA) or some other ordnance facility and sent to the various manufacturers. Since RIA had no experience with cast small arms parts Saginaw produced the drawings and sketches in their own drafting room and sent them to RIA for review and approval. The Ordnance Department had no procedure for filing drawings received from contractors so they did the next best thing; they hand wrote the drawing number of the affected part and filed it away with their own drawings. Many of these Saginaw produced drawings were archived on 35mm film along with official Ordnance Department drawings and survived to this day.
While Saginaw was busy designing and implementing the cast parts, it was also making parts by the traditional forge/machining method as nothing was allowed to interfere with wartime production quotas. Eventually the idea of casting parts caused the Ordnance Department to issue specifications for several different alloys of pearlitic malleable iron Class A and Class B each used for slightly different purposes. Saginaw is the only known WWII user of cast parts for the M1919’s. One reason for this is that about the time that castings started to be used in mass production about the last quarter of 1943, Saginaw was the only manufacturer in regular production of the .30 caliber ground type air cooled Brownings. Post WWII, RIA and its sub-contractors continued to cast parts for maintenance spares, overhaul and production of new weapons. The cast parts are fairly easy to spot because in unfinished areas they exhibit a pebbly or grained surface. While Saginaw ceased production of machine guns in mid 1945, The Malleable Iron Division, later known as the Central Foundry Division, continued to use Armasteel principally to cast crankshafts for Pontiac and Buick. Armasteel cranks are thought by some gear heads to be stronger than drop forged crankshafts. GM stopped using the name Armasteel in 1966 when the lawyers at GM thought the term misleading because Armasteel is not actually steel. The Armasteel trademark expired in 2002 and was not renewed. Edited by moneawon - Aug 18 2022 at 12:02am |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/ |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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@navinator - thanks for the link
@arthur - I have seen the gas cylinder and barrel flat marks on #18 but this one doesn’t have any of them. No markings on the gas cylinder. No markings on barrel flat. Piston nut looks like a type 1. It is unstaked. Piston has four circular marks on it but is unmarked. |
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arthur
On Point Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: dayton,ohio Status: Offline Points: 369 |
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m1a1fan, is there a number on the bottom of the gas cylinder?
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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A wagon wheel, B-197491 and then a number. Great find! Fonts looks similar to those on a butt plate
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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SMI (Saginaw Malleable Iron) was the supplier of M1A1 buttplate castings. Their symbol looks like a wagon wheel. 8 spokes instead of 6, but 6 spoke wagon wheel seems consistent in their castings
The wagon wheel is not an indication of Armasteel, it is the foundry symbol of SGMI. SGMI had different formulas and Armasteel was one of them. Red BAR trigger housing Notice the 9 instead of the 3 in other picture. Hmm, sound familiar?
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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I can't compare it one today. Could take closer pics of the wheel on the housing if someone else wants to compare. My camera isn't the best.
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Yup, the wagon wheel found on an M1A1 butt plate. Can you check and see if correct? Think there is more information. If so, we should start a new thread so the blanks can be filled in.
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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The same casting you see in the butt plates. The snow flake would be the same imprint you're talking about m1?
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kar6666
Recruit Joined: Jan 05 2016 Location: California, Mo Status: Offline Points: 53 |
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Are you talking about the circle A /
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Thanks Doc. Was wondering about the font and appearance of the A in ArmaSteel compared with the one on the XB trigger housing.
It probably deserves its own thread, but bonus points to anyone who notices another familiar mark in the pictures provided by Dr. Flip. |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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That's a good thought. Just saw this question, but this has a typical Parked appearance. |
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Nevinator
Recruit Joined: Jan 28 2018 Location: Conroe, TX Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Small reference made to Arma Steel on page 11 of the below document.
http://www.gunneyg.info/pdfs/M1_carbine_Aberdeen_1944.pdf |
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Charles
Grunt Joined: Mar 21 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 587 |
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As I mentioned earlier, I have a nice piece of black American walnut with three coats of BLO. I am still looking for a choice piece of cherry for a sample.
Will keep you advised. Charles |
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Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg. 29th. Divi. 4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired Life member NRA |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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@new2, great research! Thanks for the information. Have been looking into the A marking on the trigger housing. A long shot, but perhaps the font is unique to Saginaw Metal or ArmaSteel? The trigger housing does have lines in it from casting and strange rough areas.
@painter and Charles - When you look at the wood, what tells you it's cherry .vs black walnut? Trying to learn what to look for. Thx. Charles, looking forward to a lesson or two next time we meet. |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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@ Dr. Flip: Are any of the ArmaSteel parts you have marked? Not proof by any means but just wondering if they have any letters on them.
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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In all honesty, I doubt it's a Bavarian, but it has that similar appearance and that was presented as tangential consideration. Your research is pretty interesting on the Arma Steel. Might be totally off topic but the only Arma parts I know that I have are BAR trigger housings and receiver cuts...oh, and a couple of 428 Pontiac cranks.
Sorta related on the Bavarian realm; deldriver has seen a Carbine I have. It's a transitional Inland he feels might have been a Rural Police gun with the marking scrubbed. It's got a plum Inland type III housing with oil hole mod which had an S'G' fatboy and those are the only hammer marks present. The barrel has a type II AS band, but for certain has an import mark on the bottom of the barrel. |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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So here is the thing, Yes we see plumb housings on some Bavarians. Does that mean all plum THs are Bavarian refinish? Saginaw Malleable Iron Div of Gm was a grey iron foundry which produced parts for the war effort using their "Armasteel" Armasteel castings were a tremendous time saver as you could make parts in one piece that traditionally was several pieces put together. Another time and cost savings factor was not having to machine out heavy billets with a tremendous scrap rate. Remember there were items not allowed to be produced during the war as raw materials were needed for the war effort. Less scrap was (and is) a good thing. Saginaw Steering Gear division produced the .30 cal 191a4 machine gun as well as other war items. Armasteel was used for some parts such as back plate/grip and I believe the bottom plate the big brother of the 1919a4 war the M2HB heavy machine gun in .50 cal. The front truninon used a 20 lb forging which was machined away to 6lbs. An Armasteel casting started at less then 9 lbs. They also made the barrel support from Armasteel. The BAR also utilized Armasteel in its receiver and trigger housing. Whats the reason I blather about Armasteel ? Well many of those parts I mention have been observed plumb or reddish in color. Parkerizing was a relatively new process. It was found in production that if the tanks cooled overnight that in morning the first few batches of parkerized parts would have this color shift. I think this was due to the amount of free acids that separated out of the solution. As the tanks cooked the color improved But what does this have to do with the carbine? Well..... If you look in War Baby you will see that they experimented with Armasteel grade A parts. they made up some major components such as slide, bolt, hammer, trigger, sear, mag catch, front sight etc and sent off for testing. They found Armasteel to be suitable for some parts if a further treatment was done on parts. However the cost savings was negligible so was not done. One part was found not to need additional treatment and was approved for use, the trigger housing! Were any Armasteel THs used broadly in production???? Well we may never know the whole story, as with many things carbine, However if you look at the sole supplier of trigger housing castings for Saginaw Steering Gear Div, Saginaw you will find that it was Saginaw Malleable Iron Div. In my opinion this carbine is special and I can only conjure and speculate what and why it is what it is. But cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Now look closely on the TH on the presentation gun. Notice anything? Notice two things? But wait, didn't the Bavarians blue the housings? Weren't some of the presentations found in a high polish and blued? ... Yes, but not always, and Yes! It turns out that certain metal compositions you need blue in a different manor or you wind up with a plum color. This I have not explored why this is...yet., But it is believed it had to do with the temperature of the salt bath. *EDIT* to add: How many carbines have been corrected because of a plum housing? I have two Inland housings in plum. One I believe may be as left the factory due to the machining marks not being polished or heavily blasted. Did Inland, a Division of GM use Armasteel and we just do not know about it? |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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It looks like a Bavarian rework to me. Plumb trigger housing and shiny black refinish.
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painter777
Hard Corps Joined: Feb 18 2016 Location: Central MI Status: Offline Points: 1708 |
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Overton was known for his wood carvings. Built up a company on those skills, employed 65-75 men full time in the early days. Grabbed up more space and used over 130,000 sq ft, while employing nearly 300.
In 1925: The factory now uses over a quarter of million feet of lumber monthly; piano hammer moldings are produced at the rate of 800 sets a day; and over a million and a half phonograph legs are made yearly. Known for fine ornamental hand carved works, and taking on special orders. Piano benches, carved table legs, milled trim etc. Being located in South Haven gave them access to shipments of wood from nearly any country. A link to some SE Overton History: https://presto.arcade-museum.com/PRESTO-1925-2017/index.php?page_no=18 Cherry was tried/tested for Carbine stocks but wasn't preferred. But if one is making a presentation carbine and happens to have a stock with the figure in it like the one above, Why not use it? JMO.. But in my nearly 40 years of finishing most any wood you'd run across.. That stock is Cherry, and beautiful at that. Charlie-Painter777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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