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HSA Slide - type 5

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    Posted: Jul 24 2017 at 5:11pm
Very good. Thanks Wayne.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2017 at 4:34pm
Not to beat a dead horse, but I have googled this slides markings every day to see if I missed something. I found this post by Bill Ricca on an old CMP thread concerning this slide.

"Bill Ricca                                                                                                 02-25-2011, 10:00 AM
A while back there was a thread about M2 Slides. The thread continued to a few markings. 

http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=34855
I posted this:

I used to think HSA marked was High Standard Arms, but contract documents have proven me wrong. 

Nobody has been able to confirm the HSA marked slides. High Standard existed under two different names:

High Standard Manufacturing Company, Inc.

and

High Standard Manufacturing Corp. 

I relied on WWII and 1960-80's contracts, which were correct. What I forgot about was the BAR barrels I had. I just looked at one and it is marked:

HSA
1-54

High Standard was known for high quality barrels of all types, so I suspect the barrel is High Standard.

So it appears that the HSA slides were High Standard Arms, a name that was probably used in a limited time, for government contracts, around the time of the Korean War. However the abbreviations are not always directly related, so it could have been HIGH STANDARD MANUFACTURING.

Either way the HSA markings were used during that period."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 16 2017 at 8:26pm
New2brass,

I see the sequence now. Thank you for the clarification.

In my eyes, contesting a jump from "Hurlo" to "Herlo" as "twist(ing) things after the fact" is a weak argument. I didn't even make the one letter jump myself. It was offered in the line of discussion here, which I thought was showing solid detective work on a previously un-researched subject. (Definitely something we want to encourage here...) Anyone serious about research would want their mind to remain open to potential spelling or inflectional nuances in seeking answers to a theory. We're talking about one letter in a company name. The phonetic difference between "Hurlo," and "Herlo" is nil.

Again, I was only trying to encourage a fellow member who seemed intrigued with researching this subject. It's not a subject that I have great interest in myself, but I do enjoy when new discoveries are made. Whatever the outcome, whether the "H" stands for "Hurlo," "Herlo," "Hurricane," "Hatmaker," or "Honolulu," it will be new information to the Carbine world. I'm good with whatever may result.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 16 2017 at 4:54pm
David, You are quoting the 12th post. Your post was 9th, Louis' was 10th.
That makes Herlo later in the conversation as I see it
AFAIK Herlo had two government carbine barrel contracts from 1970-1974
 
They were rejected by the US Gov. In 1975-1976 (Vietnam era) they were sold to South Korea as USGI barrels.
 
In the 80's Blue Sky Imported carbines from South Korea and there have been reports of Herlo barrels on these carbines. This is contrary to what Bill has seen.
 
in the 90s barrels were reimported by Armscorp.
The Chrome Lined cannot be headspaced by conventional means (if at all properly)
The non chrome lined may have other issues but there are in fact good ones. I have one that has no issues.
 See link above for figuring which is which, both have HC marks
Best, Dan
 
Originally posted by David Albert David Albert wrote:

Originally posted by blackfish blackfish wrote:



Maybe it's Herlo of barrel fame instead of Hurlo ???


Lou,

Herlo was mentioned early on in the conversation, as quoted above.

I have been in touch with my friend, and he has provided some good information in regards to Herlo as a primary contractor, but doesn't have anything for them in a subcontractor role.

Herlo used an "HC" on their M1 Carbine barrels. The example that my friend has is Vietnam era production. I will see if he will reach out to Bill Ricca for any further insight.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 16 2017 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by blackfish blackfish wrote:



Maybe it's Herlo of barrel fame instead of Hurlo ???


Lou,

Herlo was mentioned early on in the conversation, as quoted above.

I have been in touch with my friend, and he has provided some good information in regards to Herlo as a primary contractor, but doesn't have anything for them in a subcontractor role.

Herlo used an "HC" on their M1 Carbine barrels. The example that my friend has is Vietnam era production. I will see if he will reach out to Bill Ricca for any further insight.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lupus Dei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 16 2017 at 12:06pm
It was not my thought or intent to attack you, if that is how you feel I do apologize.

Short and sweet, If you had referenced the newsletters Dan had pointed out we would not be discussing this.

Hurlo was quoted, Backed by Worthpoint, it was later that Herlo was mentioned. Please do not twist things after the fact. Herlo used HC on the barrels. That may not be the case on other items if produced for the carbines. 
 
You are however twisting words. Expert vs Professor are two different things, neither of which am I. Student is more suited as we are all constantly learning and we do not get paid for this.  I did not shoot down any therories, the newsletters an argument for that.

With that  lets keep this on topic.

You have many successful machine gun boards, I request you or anyone reach out to see if we can establish who made HSA barrels for the BAR.

If you are so inclined to do some research please reach out to your friend that is a friend of Bill Ricca and see if we can get to the bottom of this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 15 2017 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Lupus Dei Lupus Dei wrote:


As a writer and "status quo challenger" I am a bit taken back that you would seemingly validate something with so little to back it.

My validation was not meant to be the final arbiter. It was meant to encourage the member who was digging into uncharted Carbine territory. I believe you want to encourage that on this site. I thought the poster's premise was sound, and it checked off two boxes in my mind. For a moment, I thought "HSA" was some kind of High Standard mark, but then I realized they did not use "Arms" in their company names. So, that was check number one. Second, I remembered that some subcontractors used a single letter prefix attached to the primary contractor's mark. Thus, "HSA" made sense as a subcontractor to Springfield Armory. That checked box number 2 for me. I then commented that it made sense, and encouraged the poster by hitting the "Thanks" button. That does not seem like something to be "taken aback" about. It seems like an encouraging and neighborly thing to do...At least that is the way I intended it.

I have not found another site referencing Hurlo.

Herlo is referenced on this site for barrels.

Successful collector forum exists by holding things to a higher standard. This is why we try to use our words carefully.

If you want to begin a conversation about successful collector forums, and higher standards, I'm all ears. Let's compare notes and results.

Some who are considered carbine experts is a ridiculous statement, by who's or what standard.

I think most, including you would consider Larry Ruth a Carbine expert.

Here we are not "experts" rather students continuingly learning and researching.
 
One of the clubs long time mission is to stop the spread of misleading information, correct wrong information.

You are contradicting yourself, in my opinion. Are we students, or professors? Students learn, and interact. They make mistakes, and sharpen their learning skills along the way. They use the learning process to derive their own theories, and that should be encouraged. You are in the role of "professor." If professors shoot down all theories, or shoot down encouragement among fellow students, this may become an unfulfilling forum. I don't mind you making your statements regarding the "HSA" affirmations, but I do question you going into such an attack mode toward me, when I was just trying to encourage another member. If you'd like to debate my secondary statements about why proof by "either a contract or new item found in the wrap," can be too high of a bar, I think it would be a good debate for which many examples could be referenced.

One of the reasons The Carbine Club made the decision to go online is because the principal contributing members were tired of creating and editing content, and they felt that after almost 40 years of newsletters and documenting myriad Carbine collecting facts, that a significant percentage of the myriad had already been covered. The decision was made to move to a forum, so that less effort was necessary going forward, and the primary content source became the forum members.


Remember books on the carbine topic are published with what was though to be correct at the time of printing. Just because it is in a book does not put it in stone.

I absolutely agree. This also applies to other than Carbines.

Now I wonder how many serious Carbine-o-holics reached out and read the quoted newsletters to find that Bill Ricca wrote the article in 351
For the benefit of those who do not know who Bill Ricca is,
Bill Is a long time collector and researcher of government contracts, Contributor to the Garand Collectors Association and long time Carbine Club Contributor and member.
Bill also engaged in buying government surplus. This is where many items were found new in wrap.
Bills tireless work and time at the National Archives has helped prove and disprove many things over the years.
Bill also spent time at the Springfield Armory for research.
Bill also acquired much of that which was liquidated when Springfield Armory closed.
With that Bill is one that I would trust with a well educated guess.
As far as I know Bill has not found anything that would suggest who made HSA slides.
 
So with that and the evidence presented so far I will keep HSA as unknown in my book.

Bill Ricca is a good friend of a good friend of mine, and I certainly recognize his expertise and efforts over the years. His website has coverage of Herlo in regards to the M1 Carbine barrels that they manufactured. Herlo also made clamp-on muzzle stabilizers for M14E2/A1 rifles. Feel free to keep HSA as unknown in your book. While not proven yet, it may be soon. W5USMC has a good theory. Again, my affirmation was simply made to encourage his research.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m1a1fan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 15 2017 at 8:55pm
Could the 7 be a revision number?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 15 2017 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by blackfish blackfish wrote:

whoever manufactured them, they do work quite well for their originally intended purpose.


Mine does also. It won't win any beauty contest, as there are some blemishes in the forging facing out, but it blued extremely well. My vehicles have parts in them that I have no idea as to who made them, but they all work pretty good. This slide I have is on a regular shooter and it works pretty good as as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 15 2017 at 11:54am
whoever manufactured them, they do work quite well for their originally intended purpose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lupus Dei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 15 2017 at 11:34am
David, Thank you for paraphrasing what I had said.
I do agree that it would not have to be proven to the degree that I stated but lets look at it on the facts as presented here.
W5USMC stated he found the same marked slide on Worthpoint and a few other websites. He went on to correctly add " I cannot confirm this to be true" To which I put in bold to emphasize how he correctly presented it.
Immediately 2 members and yourself posted to a degree that some would affirm this to be correct. Anyone doing a future search may now take this to be fact. And this is how internet rumor starts. And this is why I stepped in to reel it back to reality
As a writer and "status quo challenger" I am a bit taken back that you would seemingly validate something with so little to back it.
 
The Worthpoint shows 3 auctions, 2 of which are obviously the same seller. I cannot figure out how to see who the sellers were. One auction as stated points to Riverbank. AKA Liakos. If anyone is not familiar with what I am implying should look into that!
I have not found another site referencing Hurlo. The 2 auctions can simply be parroting incorrect information
 
So with one speculation can we call this an educated guess?
 
Building blocks, see my last sentence from where you quoted as well as what others posted.
 
Successful collector forum exists by holding things to a higher standard. This is why we try to use our words carefully.
 
Some who are considered carbine experts is a ridiculous statement, by who's or what standard. Some I would give absolute credence to due to their level of research and willingness to point out fact from fiction. Other perceived carbine experts have made a living by correcting and selling carbines.
Others publishing books with bogus parts that they or an associate make.  
Here we are not "experts" rather students continuingly learning and researching.
 
One of the clubs long time mission is to stop the spread of misleading information, correct wrong information.
Remember books on the carbine topic are published with what was though to be correct at the time of printing. Just because it is in a book does not put it in stone.
 
Off the top of my head we would still be calling RSG stocks as made by Rockola and not by Robert Irwin.
R marked front sights would be Rockola and not Rudy Furnace
SW oilers are still held by some to be for Winchester with no evidence. None have been found on original Winchesters.
 
Now I wonder how many serious Carbine-o-holics reached out and read the quoted newsletters to find that Bill Ricca wrote the article in 351
For the benefit of those who do not know who Bill Ricca is,
Bill Is a long time collector and researcher of government contracts, Contributor to the Garand Collectors Association and long time Carbine Club Contributor and member.
Bill also engaged in buying government surplus. This is where many items were found new in wrap.
Bills tireless work and time at the National Archives has helped prove and disprove many things over the years.
Bill also spent time at the Springfield Armory for research.
Bill also acquired much of that which was liquidated when Springfield Armory closed.
With that Bill is one that I would trust with a well educated guess.
As far as I know Bill has not found anything that would suggest who made HSA slides.
 
So with that and the evidence presented so far I will keep HSA as unknown in my book.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 15 2017 at 8:44am
Originally posted by Lupus Dei Lupus Dei wrote:

Here we do not go with best explanations, we go with what we can prove. Either a contract or new item found in the wrap*.
Just because it is on the internet does not make it a fact.


I agree in principle, but not in practice. Yes, it would be great if everything posted were "proven" to the degree you mention.

Here is a list of reasons why everything can't, and shouldn't necessarily be proven...

- Not everything is provable to the degree you desire (contract or NIW item)
- Sometimes careful, educated guesses should be made
- Unproven theories expressed in a forum can can be building blocks that lead to later "proven" discoveries - They help along the way during the process of discovery
- A successful collector forum will not exist if everything everything has to be proven
- This same standard is not applied consistently by some who are considered to be Carbine experts

I can go on, but there is a lot of value to the conversation, even if conclusions may not be based on absolute proof. Experience, industry knowledge, and historical perspective, along with photographic and other documentary evidence that does not reach the level of a contract, or a NIW item can be quite compelling and appropriate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2017 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by jiggly jiggly wrote:

Could this possibly be the same company that made spare barrels for the BAR in the 50's? These were also marked HSA with month and year, could it be High Standard Arms?

 
I believe it was called  High Standard Manufacturing. So should it not be marked HSM?
there are I believe two versions of slides made by HS. One where it is identified by the assigned manufacture number and M2 (L479) type, and one where it is marked inside the slide where some thought HSA but no room for the A. I think this was a type 5 (L379)
 
I cannot locate the one I have right now. I do remember a CCNL mentioning it but cannot find it in the indexes. 


Hope someone can find the HSA of BAR barrels. Never seen one. Does it utilize a flaming bomb also?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2017 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by blackfish blackfish wrote:

 Maybe it's Herlo of barrel fame instead of Hurlo ???

 
I do believe this is the case. Probably was meant to be Herlo not Hurlo. I just copied and pasted from that site.  I have actually been  looking at herlo of the "crappy barrel fame" as well.  All I have found so far is that Herlo made some M14 parts. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jiggly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2017 at 1:26pm
Could this possibly be the same company that made spare barrels for the BAR in the 50's? These were also marked HSA with month and year, could it be High Standard Arms?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2017 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

I spent close to 5 hours trying to research Hurlo and the Hurlo Engineering Corporation in order to actually prove that they were tied to the manufacturing of this slide but came up empty. The research will continue.


Maybe it's Herlo of barrel fame instead of Hurlo ???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2017 at 8:47am
Agree 100% with what Louis wrote and that is why I stated that I could not confirm the information to be true. I spent close to 5 hours trying to research Hurlo and the Hurlo Engineering Corporation in order to actually prove that they were tied to the manufacturing of this slide but came up empty. The research will continue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lupus Dei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 14 2017 at 12:00am
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Found this while googling, on worthpoint.com, a couple of other sites and forums on the internet say the same thing?? I cannot confirm this to be true.
 
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

That's the best explanation I've heard. I'll go with that one!
 
Here we do not go with best explanations, we go with what we can prove. Either a contract or new item found in the wrap*.
Just because it is on the internet does not make it a fact.
 
Worthpoint is a webcrawler that searches auction sites. In the case of a quick search for Hurlo it shows ebay auctions where many times the motive of a seller is to maximize their profits.
 
Further one of the auctions point to Riverbank* as a seller of these.  This makes me more skeptical.
 
Hurlo may be a lead, But I would urge against repeating it as a fact. 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2017 at 9:52pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Found this while googling, on worthpoint.com, a couple of other sites and forums on the internet say the same thing?? I cannot confirm this to be true.

"Many parts for carbines were manufactured by subcontractors for the 11 prime contractors or as replacement parts. HSA is Hurlo Corp. for Springfield Armory"


W5USMC,

That makes sense. Thank you for your post (I clicked your "Thanks" button).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote colreed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 13 2017 at 6:24pm
Thanks, Wayne
Put in in the book.
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