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HSA Slide - type 5 |
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colreed
Grunt Joined: Feb 15 2016 Location: Hockley, TX Status: Offline Points: 450 |
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Posted: Jul 24 2017 at 5:11pm |
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Very good. Thanks Wayne.
Semper Fi
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"Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for THAT animal, THEIR world is changed forever"
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I have googled this slides markings every day to see if I missed something. I found this post by Bill Ricca on an old CMP thread concerning this slide.
"Bill Ricca 02-25-2011, 10:00 AM A while back there was a thread about M2 Slides. The thread continued to a few markings. http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=34855 I posted this: I used to think HSA marked was High Standard Arms, but contract documents have proven me wrong. Nobody has been able to confirm the HSA marked slides. High Standard existed under two different names: High Standard Manufacturing Company, Inc. and High Standard Manufacturing Corp. I relied on WWII and 1960-80's contracts, which were correct. What I forgot about was the BAR barrels I had. I just looked at one and it is marked: HSA 1-54 High Standard was known for high quality barrels of all types, so I suspect the barrel is High Standard. So it appears that the HSA slides were High Standard Arms, a name that was probably used in a limited time, for government contracts, around the time of the Korean War. However the abbreviations are not always directly related, so it could have been HIGH STANDARD MANUFACTURING. Either way the HSA markings were used during that period." |
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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New2brass,
I see the sequence now. Thank you for the clarification. In my eyes, contesting a jump from "Hurlo" to "Herlo" as "twist(ing) things after the fact" is a weak argument. I didn't even make the one letter jump myself. It was offered in the line of discussion here, which I thought was showing solid detective work on a previously un-researched subject. (Definitely something we want to encourage here...) Anyone serious about research would want their mind to remain open to potential spelling or inflectional nuances in seeking answers to a theory. We're talking about one letter in a company name. The phonetic difference between "Hurlo," and "Herlo" is nil. Again, I was only trying to encourage a fellow member who seemed intrigued with researching this subject. It's not a subject that I have great interest in myself, but I do enjoy when new discoveries are made. Whatever the outcome, whether the "H" stands for "Hurlo," "Herlo," "Hurricane," "Hatmaker," or "Honolulu," it will be new information to the Carbine world. I'm good with whatever may result. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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David, You are quoting the 12th post. Your post was 9th, Louis' was 10th. That makes Herlo later in the conversation as I see it
AFAIK Herlo had two government carbine barrel contracts from 1970-1974 They were rejected by the US Gov. In 1975-1976 (Vietnam era) they were sold to South Korea as USGI barrels. In the 80's Blue Sky Imported carbines from South Korea and there have been reports of Herlo barrels on these carbines. This is contrary to what Bill has seen. in the 90s barrels were reimported by Armscorp. The Chrome Lined cannot be headspaced by conventional means (if at all properly) The non chrome lined may have other issues but there are in fact good ones. I have one that has no issues. See link above for figuring which is which, both have HC marks Best, Dan
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Lou, Herlo was mentioned early on in the conversation, as quoted above. I have been in touch with my friend, and he has provided some good information in regards to Herlo as a primary contractor, but doesn't have anything for them in a subcontractor role. Herlo used an "HC" on their M1 Carbine barrels. The example that my friend has is Vietnam era production. I will see if he will reach out to Bill Ricca for any further insight. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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Lupus Dei
Hard Corps Club Secretary Emeritus Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: CCC Status: Offline Points: 1417 |
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It was not my thought or intent to attack you, if that is how you feel I do
apologize. Short and sweet, If you had referenced the newsletters Dan had pointed out we would not be discussing this. Hurlo was quoted, Backed by Worthpoint, it was later that Herlo was mentioned. Please do not twist things after the fact. Herlo used HC on the barrels. That may not be the case on other items if produced for the carbines. You are however twisting words. Expert vs Professor are two different
things, neither of which am I. Student is more suited as we are all constantly
learning and we do not get paid for this. I did not shoot down any therories, the newsletters an argument for
that. With that lets keep this on topic. You have many successful machine gun boards, I request you or anyone reach out to see if we can establish who made HSA barrels for the BAR. If you are so inclined to do some research please reach out to your friend that is a friend of Bill Ricca and see if we can get to the bottom of this. |
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Louis Dey
Admin www.uscarbinecal30.com/forums |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Could the 7 be a revision number?
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floydthecat
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 13 2016 Location: Mississippi Status: Offline Points: 1996 |
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Mine does also. It won't win any beauty contest, as there are some blemishes in the forging facing out, but it blued extremely well. My vehicles have parts in them that I have no idea as to who made them, but they all work pretty good. This slide I have is on a regular shooter and it works pretty good as as well. |
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blackfish
On Point Joined: Mar 30 2016 Location: 999-0 Status: Offline Points: 289 |
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whoever manufactured them, they do work quite well for their originally intended purpose.
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Lupus Dei
Hard Corps Club Secretary Emeritus Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: CCC Status: Offline Points: 1417 |
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David, Thank you for paraphrasing what I had said.
I do agree that it would not have to be proven to the degree that I stated but lets look at it on the facts as presented here. W5USMC stated he found the same marked slide on Worthpoint and a few other websites. He went on to correctly add " I cannot confirm this to be true" To which I put in bold to emphasize how he correctly presented it. Immediately 2 members and yourself posted to a degree that some would affirm this to be correct. Anyone doing a future search may now take this to be fact. And this is how internet rumor starts. And this is why I stepped in to reel it back to reality As a writer and "status quo challenger" I am a bit taken back that you would seemingly validate something with so little to back it. The Worthpoint shows 3 auctions, 2 of which are obviously the same seller. I cannot figure out how to see who the sellers were. One auction as stated points to Riverbank. AKA Liakos. If anyone is not familiar with what I am implying should look into that! I have not found another site referencing Hurlo. The 2 auctions can simply be parroting incorrect information So with one speculation can we call this an educated guess? Building blocks, see my last sentence from where you quoted as well as what others posted. Successful collector forum exists by holding things to a higher standard. This is why we try to use our words carefully. Some who are considered carbine experts is a ridiculous statement, by who's or what standard. Some I would give absolute credence to due to their level of research and willingness to point out fact from fiction. Other perceived carbine experts have made a living by correcting and selling carbines. Others publishing books with bogus parts that they or an associate make. Here we are not "experts" rather students continuingly learning and researching. One of the clubs long time mission is to stop the spread of misleading information, correct wrong information. Remember books on the carbine topic are published with what was though to be correct at the time of printing. Just because it is in a book does not put it in stone. Off the top of my head we would still be calling RSG stocks as made by Rockola and not by Robert Irwin. R marked front sights would be Rockola and not Rudy Furnace SW oilers are still held by some to be for Winchester with no evidence. None have been found on original Winchesters. Now I wonder how many serious Carbine-o-holics reached out and read the quoted newsletters to find that Bill Ricca wrote the article in 351 For the benefit of those who do not know who Bill Ricca is, Bill Is a long time collector and researcher of government contracts, Contributor to the Garand Collectors Association and long time Carbine Club Contributor and member. Bill also engaged in buying government surplus. This is where many items were found new in wrap. Bills tireless work and time at the National Archives has helped prove and disprove many things over the years. Bill also spent time at the Springfield Armory for research. Bill also acquired much of that which was liquidated when Springfield Armory closed. With that Bill is one that I would trust with a well educated guess. As far as I know Bill has not found anything that would suggest who made HSA slides. So with that and the evidence presented so far I will keep HSA as unknown in my book. |
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Louis Dey
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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I agree in principle, but not in practice. Yes, it would be great if everything posted were "proven" to the degree you mention. Here is a list of reasons why everything can't, and shouldn't necessarily be proven... - Not everything is provable to the degree you desire (contract or NIW item) - Sometimes careful, educated guesses should be made - Unproven theories expressed in a forum can can be building blocks that lead to later "proven" discoveries - They help along the way during the process of discovery - A successful collector forum will not exist if everything everything has to be proven - This same standard is not applied consistently by some who are considered to be Carbine experts I can go on, but there is a lot of value to the conversation, even if conclusions may not be based on absolute proof. Experience, industry knowledge, and historical perspective, along with photographic and other documentary evidence that does not reach the level of a contract, or a NIW item can be quite compelling and appropriate. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4627 |
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I believe it was called High Standard Manufacturing. So should it not be marked HSM? there are I believe two versions of slides made by HS. One where it is identified by the assigned manufacture number and M2 (L479) type, and one where it is marked inside the slide where some thought HSA but no room for the A. I think this was a type 5 (L379) I cannot locate the one I have right now. I do remember a CCNL mentioning it but cannot find it in the indexes. Hope someone can find the HSA of BAR barrels. Never seen one. Does it utilize a flaming bomb also? |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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I do believe this is the case. Probably was meant to be Herlo not Hurlo. I just copied and pasted from that site. I have actually been looking at herlo of the "crappy barrel fame" as well. All I have found so far is that Herlo made some M14 parts. |
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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jiggly
Recruit Joined: Jan 16 2017 Location: TN Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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Could this possibly be the same company that made spare barrels for the BAR in the 50's? These were also marked HSA with month and year, could it be High Standard Arms?
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blackfish
On Point Joined: Mar 30 2016 Location: 999-0 Status: Offline Points: 289 |
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Maybe it's Herlo of barrel fame instead of Hurlo ??? |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2949 |
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Agree 100% with what Louis wrote and that is why I stated that I could not confirm the information to be true. I spent close to 5 hours trying to research Hurlo and the Hurlo Engineering Corporation in order to actually prove that they were tied to the manufacturing of this slide but came up empty. The research will continue.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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Lupus Dei
Hard Corps Club Secretary Emeritus Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: CCC Status: Offline Points: 1417 |
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Here we do not go with best explanations, we go with what we can prove. Either a contract or new item found in the wrap*. Just because it is on the internet does not make it a fact. Worthpoint is a webcrawler that searches auction sites. In the case of a quick search for Hurlo it shows ebay auctions where many times the motive of a seller is to maximize their profits. Further one of the auctions point to Riverbank* as a seller of these. This makes me more skeptical. Hurlo may be a lead, But I would urge against repeating it as a fact. |
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Louis Dey
Admin www.uscarbinecal30.com/forums |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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W5USMC, That makes sense. Thank you for your post (I clicked your "Thanks" button). David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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colreed
Grunt Joined: Feb 15 2016 Location: Hockley, TX Status: Offline Points: 450 |
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Thanks, Wayne
Put in in the book. Reed
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"Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for THAT animal, THEIR world is changed forever"
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