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Bullet penetration myth busted |
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Here are some more references that don't go directly to the penetration "myth," but do support often mentioned disdain for the Carbine in Korea.
The first are from War Baby II, by Larry Ruth, published by Collector Grade Publications in 1993, on page 518. Mr. Ruth quotes Jack Lewis, owner of Gun World magazine, who wrote an article titled, "The Controversial Carbine (that) G.I.s the globe over have sworn at - or sworn by" in the early 1960's. Mr. Lewis mentioned that in the winter of 1951, "During a charge by narcotics-imbued Chinese troops, I saw one of them shot 8 times with a Carbine and he just kept coming. The jacketed 110-grain bullets didn't even seem to slow him down. He was finally dropped by a private armed with an M1 Garand rifle." Mr. Ruth also quotes Philip B. Sharpe, from his book titled "The Rifle in America," where Sharpe references a military hunting trip in Germany by several soldiers with Carbines. They were hunting a very small deer, known as a Roebuck. They encountered a 45 pound buck at a distance of about 30 feet, and everyone opened fire, but the buck kept running. About 40 shots were fired in what the author thought was "the worst exhibition of shooting he had ever seen." He indicated that he had to apologize when the deer dropped after a spine shot, and it was determined that the small animal had been hit 22 times. In War Baby III, by Larry Ruth, published by Collector Grade Publications in 2013, on page 1224, Mr. Ruth quotes Chuck Karwan's 1997 article from Guns Illustrated, where Mr. Karwan states, "In my opinion, the M2 Carbine is the source of much of the bad reputation that the M1/M2 Carbines gained for being ineffective. I am convinced that the vast majority of cases where enemy soldiers are reported to have absorbed an entire magazine of ammunition and kept coming were actually cases where the soldier dumped a full magazine on full auto in the general direction and simply missed him." I quote these limited excerpts from the 2 books because I think they go hand in hand with the bullet penetration "myth." The Roebuck account is particularly interesting to me. M2 Carbines were the prevalent Korean service Carbine, and in the heat of battle, likely produced many missed shots on full auto under pressure. Perhaps the thick Chinese uniforms became the scapegoat for poor marksmanship, full auto weapon control, and cartridge capability when used in a main battle rifle role. Your thoughts? David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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wd4ngb
On Point Joined: Feb 17 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 121 |
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David Albert
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Quite convincing. I'd still like to see results further out than 75 yards.
But why so many accounts? I'm thinking adrenaline must have played a role in the perception. My old boss was a Marine artillery officer in Vietnam, and ended up using a Carbine in one engagement. He hated the weapon, and said it just didn't put the enemy down. He also told me he ended up throwing it in a river to get rid of it. He was not a fan. BTW, he retired as a Colonel, and went on to a second career where he became a high net worth individual. Most inspiring leader I have ever worked for... David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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Sharps40
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lack of penetration by 30 carbine is primarily due to missing the target. Whether deer or the enemy in frozen jackets.
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David Albert
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The deer was hit 22 times... David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2959 |
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That was a great video wd4ngb, well done. After everything I have read and seen, I am leaning to the combination of weapons malfunctions due to cold, adrenaline, fog of war, poor marksmanship due to lack of control with full auto (same reason the m16 and m4 are now 3 rnd burst vice full auto) and I am also sure a enemy that was hopped up on narcotics did not help matters.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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bonnie
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Adding also the carbine FMJ bullet will pass through and through soft tissue not creating a good wound channel. The Roe deer probable a good example. |
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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The first report referenced by author Larry Ruth related to complaints about the carbine in Korea appears in:
War Baby! Comes Home The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbine Volume II by Larry Ruth Chapter 30 The Tarnished Shield Brig. Marshall's Critique of the Carbine in Korea p. 511-513 The full article, which includes critiques on more than a few weapons: Report ORO-R-13 Commentary of Infantry Operations and Weapons Usage in Korea Winter of 1950-1951 by S.L.A. Marshall Operations Research Office The John Hopkins University Part II -Weapons Use and Usefulness Chapter VIII The Carbine The full document can be downloaded here: Korean War Educator Online I'm not going to attack Marshall or who he was employed by at the time he wrote the article and his job position for that employer. I will clarify it's a critique of a variety of things. The carbines are included but not the primary focus. The primary theme is critique. The section on the carbine is not something I'm gonna quote as it's long and revolves around two primary issues. 1) The ineffectiveness of the carbine and it's cartridge in combat 2) The shortcomings of full auto fire with the select fire M2 Carbine. To start with, no one should be surprised when they shoot something with an M1 carbine and that something doesn't immediately drop dead. I'll add the same holds true for the M1 Garand. What we're really talking about is the .30 caliber carbine cartridge and the 30-06 cartridge. The .30-06 cartridge has been in wider and longer use for many purposes than the carbine. How many times ha s hunter shot a dear, moose, or some other animal only to have it run off somewhere else and die? There are two reason for this happening. Shot placement and the fight or flight survival mechanism of the inner brain of animals, humans included. There can be no argument of the effectiveness of the carbine cartridge approaching anywhere near the effectiveness of the 30-06 cartridge. But shoot someone in the head and the question becomes moot. Shot placement. Marshall's criticisms of the .30 caliber carbine were not from first hand experience. They tend to be more inflammatory as opposed to factual based with supporting evidence. At the same time there were obviously soldiers who did not like the carbines and preferred a different weapon for use in an active combat role. A never ending story to some degree. There's no doubt in my mind that the carbines were often not up to the task combat presented on the hilltops of Korea. I confess ignorance on this next point having never been in the military let alone in combat on the hilltops of Korea. Other than the support personnel the carbines were designed for who the heck made the decision to pass them out to infantry combat troops in the environments of Korea? Maybe they ran out of M1 Garands and decided the carbine was a better choice than a 1911? I don't believe for one second the stories of the carbine failing to penetrate the clothing of the North Koreans or Chinese, frozen or not frozen. From personal experience. Such a case would require something more than a Chinese popsicle. I think these stories were an assumption based on ignorance. Had someone investigated a percentage of these cases I suspect shot placement would have been a deciding factor with distance possibly being a contributing factor. Addressing Marshall's second issue concerning the ineffectiveness of full automatic fire and the extent to which he criticised the M2 carbine in full auto mode. This tells me something about the man and his knowledge of weapons. Full auto fire is a skill to be learned and mastered. Then applied appropriately given the circumstances at hand. Dave Albert is far more qualified to address this than I am given his areas of interest. The training and time involved in making an infantrymen proficient with a single shot or semi-auto rifle led to the formation of the NRA shortly after the Civil War and the Director of Civilian Marksmanship (DCM) at the beginning of the 20th Century. Accurate fire with a full auto weapon takes a level and time training and practice general infantry normally doesn't get. Feel free to correct me on this. The issue with full auto fire is not a carbine issue. It's a training issue. One that prompted the change of the M16 rifle from full auto to 3 round bursts. I highly recommend the tour of FBI HQ in Washington D.C. Part of the tour used to include an agent firing a Thompson SMG on full auto at a distance of about 50 feet. The end result being a hole the size of a fist. I tried this on a police range and blew out the overhead lights for half the distance to the target. Why? I had no training on how to manage full auto fire. Had I been issued a full auto weapon I would have gotten the training and experience or not gone full auto. As indicated in a prior post here I've found the two factors most commonly involved in dropping a person with a gunshot, almost any gun shot, has been shot placement and the physical/mental state of the person being shot. Particularly if te person is under the influence of alcohol or a one or more drugs. If you have ever seen, or see, officer(s) handcuff what appears to be a dead suspect it's because too many people have been killed by presumably dead suspects. Even if the go down they're still a threat. I suspect the same has been true in the various wars troops have been involved in. It's not the gun or bullet, it's shot placement and physical/mental affects. Jim P.S. Watch the movie "To Hell and Back" with Audie Murphy. It's a movie but Murphy was a technical consultant on his own life experience. At one point re-enacting an actual incident Murphy swapped rifles with someone giving them the M1 Garand he was carrying for their M1 Carbine. When done with the task at hand he switched back to the M1 Garand. Murphy knew when to use a carbine and when not too. |
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wd4ngb
On Point Joined: Feb 17 2016 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 121 |
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Thankfully we are allowed Defense Ammo to use with these as civilians, and do not need several hits to drop our target. I keep several hundred rounds of FMJ and Defense Ammo on hand, and loaded in marked magazines.
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Retired Army, 22 years.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4658 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4NHSMcnSd8
30 cal in ballistics gel. Nothing to do with jackets but interesting just the same
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colreed
Grunt Joined: Feb 15 2016 Location: Hockley, TX Status: Offline Points: 452 |
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Thanks, Dan
Sort of proves the point. I'm convinced.
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"Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for THAT animal, THEIR world is changed forever"
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4658 |
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Ian's take on the myth. Forgotten Weapons go to the 10:18 mark Edited by New2brass - Oct 17 2023 at 10:24am |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4658 |
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painter777
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Speaking of Ian, my nephew Jordan Flayer works and travels with him. They are currently on their way to a Iron Man Shoot.... somewhere in Europe. They met years ago at a range and became friends. Jordan became a roadie. But now travels and shoots with him. It's his Dream job.
Ian and my Nephew, Jordan Flayer Charlie-P777
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Living Free because of those that serve.....
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35 Whelen
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My own experience-
This is the frame of my 100 yd. target stand- 1 1/4" 11 ga. square tubing. |
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David Milisock
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But hit where? The FBI hit Baby Face Nelson over 20 times!
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David Milisock
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David Milisock
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Some thoughts and my experiance.
First I was not born during the Korean Conflict so I have no first hand knowledge. However the M1 Carbines used in Korea were in many cases WWII rebuilds of unknown quality. Second I'm unable to chronograph U.S ammo issued in Korea. It may have lost significant velocity. I doubt that it was more that 100 FPS! My experiance with the M1 Carbine 50 years ago proved to me in close that it is devastating, out to 200 very functional. If you hit it works!
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David Milisock
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sleeplessnashadow
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Obviously the claims stating the .30 carbine bullets failed to penetrate the winter clothing of the Chinese were not based on examinations of the Chinese soldiers and their clothing after they were shot. There has been no evidence to support this claim other than word of mouth. All evidence since then has proven this claim to be false.
As for the critique of the carbine in Korea by S.L.A. Marshall, my question to Marshall would be, why are you critical of a roofing hammer because it's not performing like a 10 lb sledge hammer? The roofing hammer gets the job done when used correctly at close quarters but maybe you shouldn't have allowed them to be issued to your front line combat soldiers if you wanted them to have the impact of a 10 lb sledge hammer. Did you not know this from all the first hand experience you and others gained during WWII? Jim |
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FortyFiveAuto
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Someone on the CMP forum mentioned this report that was produced out of Korea which is pretty enlightening : http://https://lmharchive.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Use-of-Infantry-Weapons-and-Equipment-in-Korea-1952.pdf
The carbine is only briefly mentioned, and it's basically just to say that soldiers "didn't feel safe with a carbine", with no data to back up that sentiment. Keep in mind this particular report was created specifically based on interviews with soldiers at the time who were asked to provide the very kind of anecdotal evidence that the carbine penetration myth would have come from. And it's never mentioned. If the story had been circulating at the time it seems pretty likely it would have come up - the report says specifically they asked soldiers for the unvarnished truth on all the equipment in use at the time. The fact that it was never mentioned tells me it was a myth that developed later based on the general sense that the carbine was small and underpowered compared to the M1 and BAR. Something I do find ironic is how unreliable the M1 and BAR apparently were in combat in these conditions according to the data in the report. They pretty much blamed it all on inadequate cleaning, but the mythos around the M1 Garand being a weapon which could do no wrong does not seem to track with this data from Korea. If I had to discard my weapon in battle and pick up another in the middle of the fight due to a malfunction - as the report indicated a staggering 1/3 of men interviewed said they had to do - I would be cussing the thing up, down, right and left. Don't get me wrong, I love and appreciate both the Garand and Carbine, but data like this report and the testing of the .30 carbine round really do show how much common perception and myth can be disconnected from reality.
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thirtyround
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Would also like to add to function issue, as mentioned # 1 is magazines. # 1 issue with commercial aftermarket magazines are feed lip spacing, or distance between fed lips. USGI, both 15 and 30 round magazines are 12mm nominal. If you find used GI's or any commercial variant 15 or 30 (especially 30rd) and the measurements are wider by 1/2 mm dont waist your time.
A good non-scientific test to determine if your mags are feed lip worthy is this... load 15 mag to capacity, load 30rd mag to 20 or 25... holding the mag vertical, tap/rap the bottom of the mag on the table top, or what have you... if any amount of the ammunition spews out.... that a questionable mag... I get rid of those myself. Great Post Ya'll, Cheers, JB |
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John
USMC Retired NRA Life Member Gun Owners of America Member |
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