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UNIVERSAL M1 CARBINE ?

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    Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 12:24pm
Hello all,
 
 I was looking for information on a Universal M1 Carbine. I'm trying to find about when it was made and value.
 From what I can tell it was made in the 60's, but from what some people have said it was made in the 80's.
 The serial number is X5$$ and is in front of the rear sight, Universal name and address is behind rear sight. Has a G.I. op rod with single recoil spring, front sight is held on by set screw, G.I. barrel band with bayonet lug.
 What is confusing is the serial number, the Universal web site that links to this web site says that the prefix x is for Experimental and only goes up to 400 and this one is X5$$.
 Any help would be appreciated. This is the web site I have been getting most of my info from http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_universal.html
 
Thanks Scott
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Any pictures you can post would help
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 6:38pm
that website is part of this forum. Click on top banner which brings you to web pages. look at menu on left and click commercial carbines Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 9:00pm
Hi Scott. I'm the researcher who did the work on Universal and authored the website.

I have a short survey that if you'll post the answers or PM me with the answers it will help me tell you more about your carbine. The survey is here:

http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine%5FUniversalhelp.html

All of the serial numbers in the table that includes X400 are based on what I've been able to reconstruct from what I've seen and what others have shared. So yours isn't out of range for what Universal did. It's just higher than what I've seen before. I've seen a lot but will never see anything close to all.

I'm interested in what you have.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sac45lc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2016 at 10:37pm
Thanks got it to work and pmed Jim.
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This post will be an overview leading into a 2nd post on the Universal Firearms carbines having a serial number with an X prefix.



Universal Firearms Dates of Manufacture

Universal Firearms manufactured carbines in Hialeah, FL from 1962-1984. Total production during this time exceeded 480,000 carbines. In 1983 and 1984 Universal also manufactured receivers for Iver Johnson Arms in Jacksonville, AR. These receivers have the markings of Iver Johnson.

No documents or information has been located that provides dates of manufacture for the carbines made by Universal Firearms. In an effort to reconstruct what was done when I have been collecting and organizing information from many different sources over the past ten years.

Serial numbers used by Universal ran numerically and started where they had left off while part of Bullseye Firearms 1961-1962. The lowest serial number for Universal observed so far has been 2054. The highest number used while at Bullseye that has been so far is 1627. Most people are aware of a major design change to their carbines that was implemented by Universal in 1967. Carbines produced up to this point had been mostly compatible with the parts from their GI carbine counterparts. This design change produced a hybrid carbine similar in appearance to the Cal. .30 U.S. Carbines and used the same cartridge. However, the hybrid design changes were significant enough that the hybrids should no longer be considered, or compared to, an M1 Carbine. The hybrids were Universal's primary production carbine thereafter. Serial numbers were below s/n 100,000 are the carbines with most parts interchangeable with their GI counterparts. These continued into the 99,000 series with the hybrid starting at s/n 100,000. The highest Universal serial number observed so far has been 488,363.

A separate set of serial numbers was used for the Vulcan model carbines produced 1963-1965. Vulcan serial numbers recorded so far have been 1014 - 2453. During 1980 Universal produced a commemorative carbine. Serial numbers recorded so far have been 00204 - 000430. From 1983-1984 Universal manufactured a stainless steel carbine. Serial numbers for their stainless model started with the prefix S and SS. Those recorded so far have been S01120-SS3467.

In reconstructing what was done by Universal several unique characteristics and changes have assisted in estimating a date of manufacture. Particularly with serial numbers below 100,000. These characteristics and their relation to dates of manufacture are the primary reason for this post and follow below.

Understanding Serial Numbers and what a Date of Manufacture is

Under the laws of the United States the date of manufacture is the date the carbine receiver is capable of being used to build a functional firearm. There is no legal requirement for other parts to be attached to the receiver. Legally, the receiver alone is considered the firearm.

Absent detailed records kept at the locations and times during the manufacturing process determining when a firearm was assembled into a complete firearm or a date when it was ready to be sold is next to impossible.

A brief description of the manufacturing process is necessary to understand why serial numbers are not always a reliable means of determining when a firearm was manufactured. While the focus here is Universal Firearms this applies to all firearms to varying degrees.

Universal Firearms manufactured their receivers by machining steel billets that had been drop forged for the specific purpose of manufacturing Universal's carbine receivers. Markings and serial numbers were added to the receiver after machining had been finished but before the receiver was hardened and blued. Assuming the receiver passed final inspection there was no guarantee when the receiver would be assembled into a carbine. Receivers were not selected for assembly in a numerical order by serial number.



During the process of the manufacturing of the receiver other parts were also being manufactured concurrently. Some by subcontractors in other locations. Parts and parts groups were completed at different times from one another and at different times than the receivers. Which ones ended up on the final product that would be sold were normally manufactured within a few months of one another but not always.

The reason for discussing this will become more apparent as you read what follows.

Stock Markings

From 1962-1967 then off and on between 1967-1972 stocks and handguards used by Universal were manufactured by Blanton Woodworking Industries (BWI). BWI which could be considered a subsidiary of Universal as Universal funded their startup costs with BWI making stocks and handguards only for use by Universal. Most of the stocks and handguards manufactured by Blanton have a three or four digit number stamped or written inside the stock with the same number inside the handguard. The numbers indicated which stock and handguard were finished together and should come back together after their finish dried. This is an example of the attention to detail by BWI as all stocks and handguards were physically interchangeable. If the numbers don't match it simply means they weren't hand finished together.

The majority of stocks did not have the manufacturers name, only the matching numbers. The exception being from approximately s/n 15,000 to s/n 30,000 the letters BWI were stamped with ink inside the front end of the stock.

The single most significant aid to identifying when a stock and handguard set were completely finished and ready to be assembled onto a carbine began in late 1962. BWI began stamping the date the stock and handguard were completed inside the front of the stock. The earliest observed so far is September 1962. Months that followed included the day. The latest date observed so far has been September 23, 1963. The serial numbers of the receivers in these stocks are not exactly sequential as the receivers were completed at a different point in time and added as the carbine was assembled. The serial number range has been 6200-17,500.



While these dates only apply to the stocks that have them and not the entire carbine, when added to what comes next they have significantly helped in estimating dates of manufacture from the beginning through s/n 99,999.

Receiver Markings

Most of the receivers used by Universal prior to s/n 100,000 have a one or two digit number stamped below the stock line on the left side of the receiver near the front. These numbers appear sporadically between s/n 100,000 and 300,000. These numbers ran sequentially with the same number appearing on other receivers manufactured during the same time period. The numbers are unrelated to the serial number. They were used as a quality control method should any particular group of receivers have problems at a later point in time. The point at which the numbers were placed on the receiver and the exact why is not known. They preceded hardening and bluing. I believe the numbers were placed on the receiver well before the serial number. Possibly between the time the receiver was separated from the forged steel billet and when machining began.



Each number represents the number of months since the first month Universal Firearms started production. The lowest number observed to date is 9. Indicating the 9th month of production. The serial number on the receiver this appears on is X056. The date inside the stock attached to s/n X056 is November 7, 1962. We'll cover the X series in the next post. The lowest number in the regular serial number sequence is the number 11 on s/n 11137. The date inside the stock attached to s/n 11137 is February 1, 1963. Keep in mind this date is when the stock was finished and unrelated to the receiver. On the upper end of stock dates, the stock dated September 23, 1963 is on receiver s/n 17260 with the number 15 on the left side of the receiver.

The numbers on the left side of the receiver get higher as the serial numbers get higher but the serial numbers that appear in any given month are not always in sequence as serial numbers were not applied based on the number on the left side of the receiver. They served two different unrelated purposes.

These numbers on the left side of the receiver consistently appear through the 95,000 serial number series with the number 50 on s/n 95212 and s/n 95290. With the introduction o the hybrids at s/n 100,000 the two digit numbers are sometimes present but most often not. The peak at 74 on s/n 200,320. While a few appear later I'll stop here as further would make things more confusing.

Making Sense out of the Numbers

By now you can see the challenge with estimating a date of manufacture. The numbers only tell us when the stock was finished or when the receiver was being manufactured. 1963-1966 was a time of peak production. Stocks were assembled into carbines within 3-6 weeks. If the time period of between the number on the left side of the receiver and when the stock was finished remained consistent you can estimate the carbine was probably assembled about 2-4 months after the number on the left side of the receiver.

This challenge isn't just with carbines manufactured by Universal. It exists with the carbines built during WWII. Using serial numbers to estimate dates a carbine passed inspection and went out the door is operationally not realistic. But having a date on a stock, barrel or other part can help with estimates. For a period of time during WWII barrels were in critical demand and a lack thereof threatened to shut down production lines. During that time period the date on the barrel from when it was manufactured was a good indicator of estimating when the carbine was assembled and passed inspection, which was usually a month or two at most.

A Note about Universal Firearms

22 years and even 450,000 carbines was longer and double what any other commercial carbine manufacturer has achieved. The number of changes implemented by Universal over that time has made reconstructing the history of their carbines a real challenge. The web pages currently online for Universal are sorely in need of an overhaul and update. I have much more info than appears on those pages. With 3 websites and over 250 web pages that keep growing that update may be awhile. I keep hoping things will level out and I can then just run updates and maintenance and get back to doing the research and investigations I love to do. My apologies things don't happen quicker.

The info above probably wasn't what you had hoped for. But it's the realities of production. Plus it leads into the next post on the X series carbines that will help put them in perspective.

For those of you who are certain the carbines made by Universal were junk, please keep thinking that way and telling others. It helps keep the prices down. :)

Jim
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Universal Firearms - The X Series Serial Numbers

To date I have information on seven Universal carbines having a serial number preceded by the letter X. The numbers that follow are three digits and not part of the regular serial numbering sequence used by Universal.

The lowest s/n so far is X056. It has the number 9 on the left side of the receiver. This is the lowest number I have seen on the left side of a receiver and have yet to see a regular production Universal with anything below the number 11. It has a date inside the stock of November 7, 1962.



The highest s/n so far is X623. It has the number 11 on the left side of the receiver. No other X prefix carbines go beyond the number 11. The stock is dated November 9, 1962.

One X prefix carbine slightly below X623 has a stock dated January 30, 1963. All 7 have stocks dated between November 7th 1962 and January 30, 1963.

S/N 9626 and lower do not have numbers on the left side of the receiver. As indicated above, the lowest number on the left side of the production receivers seen so far is 11. The lowest s/n I have with the 11 so far is 11137 with a stock dated February 1, 1963.

All seven X carbines have a variety of GI surplus parts as do the regular production carbines for well after this time period. This is also true of having no cutout in the left side of the stock for a scope side mount. These started appearing at about s/n 24,000 and later. I have information on 4 regular production carbines with the number 11 on the left side of the receiver. All 4 have s/n's in the 11100 to 11300 range with stock dates in February 1963.

The front sight on 5 of the 7 X carbines is GI surplus and pinned to the key set into the top of the barrel. X623 I have no info on the front sight. The one slightly below it with the date of January 30, 1963 has the Universal designed front sight that is secured to the barrel with a set screw through the top of the sight. The Universal front sight does not start appearing on regular production carbines until after s/n 22017 (#19 on left side of receiver, stock undated).

Barrels in use prior to and after the X series carbines have 12 lands and grooves. I do not have info on all 7 X barrels but the few I do have they are 12 groove. Manufactured by Small Arms Mfg in PA, predecessor of current day E.R. Shaw barrels and used by several different commercial carbines manufacturers.

Other than the start of the numbers on the left side of the receiver, I have not seen anything unique about the X series receivers. They are consistent with those used in production but prior and much later. Though I have not been able to examine most of these closely first hand. I've had to rely on whatever photos I can get.

The 7 X series I've seen have had more than one owner over the years. Their parts are not consistent with being constructed into retail carbines over time or after the closure of Universal. They are consistent with the time period of the regular production carbines during the dates on their stocks. With the exception of the front sight on at least one, they all appear the same.

Abe Seiderman

The mind behind designs and changes at Universal Firearms throughout their 22 year lifespan was Abe Seiderman. His experience with carbines predated Universal with Bullseye and prior. He was a motivating force is starting Bullseye and the force behind the separation from Bullseye that formed Universal Firearms. My experience in researching Seiderman and Universal indicates to me he did not do things without first doing research into what had been done prior followed by his own experiments and testing. Many of his ideas were not originally his. He obtained them from the research done by Inland and Winchester in the development of the U.S. Carbine manufactured during WWII.

Seiderman appears to have been prolific and trying different ideas with some resulting in the many changes to Universal's carbines over the years. As to the wisdom and success of these changes people will likely be critical of Universal carbines well past my lifespan. I'll just leave it with different is not the same as worse. Different subject for a different time. The point being, Seiderman was inclined to experiment and change things.

What Are They?

I have no doubt Seiderman knew of the common use of an X prefix to designate an experimental platform. I believe the X series were intended as such. However, the X series has an oddity for an experimental series. Assuming all numbers were used from X056 thru X623 this would equal 577 experimental carbines constructed within several months of one another. Likely more.

One possibility is they represented a change Universal/Seiderman wanted to keep track of. I don't believe that change was the front sight, which included a barrel that was not tapered for the front sight, as all would have them.

With only 7 having been shared and some of those not to a degree that assists in determining if anything unique was done with them, I'm not ready to form any conclusions. The one thing that piques my interest is those 7 preceded the regular production carbines in the use of the number on the left side of the receiver. With the regular production carbines continuing to have this number long after the X series carbines.

My theory has been the number was placed on the receiver as a quality control measure and preceded the machining of the receivers. It doesn't make sense that serial numbers would be changed to an X series when the number is either present or not.

Unfortunately the photos I have saved are of low quality and do not give much detail. Getting decent photos is always a challenge. So I'm glad an owner has joined the forum who is willing to share photos. Thank you.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote wd4ngb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2016 at 12:27pm
Very Interesting information. 
Retired Army, 22 years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sac45lc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2016 at 8:56pm

here are some pictures of my carbine, 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 10 2016 at 10:42am
480,000 is a lot of M1 Carbines! It's amazing to me that after being the most produced firearm in history at the time it ended production in WWII, and all the surplus Carbines that came on the market afterwards, that there was still enough interest to drive commercial manufacture of almost a half million more by a small company in the Miami area.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 12 2016 at 5:11am
This list isn't all inclusive and doesn't include leftovers bought at auction by Numrich Gun Parts and sold later. Nor does it include carbine replicas in calibers other than .30 carbine.

The 1967 issue of Gun Digest pages 237-242 has an article on commercial carbines in production at the time. The title of the article pretty well sums it up:

"Why Won't the GI Carbine Die?
Nobody Likes this Little Rifle but People, that's Why"

I'll add: size, weight, cost, semi-auto, low recoil, ease of part replacement and a remote connection to over 6 million made during WWII.

873,000 plus commercial carbines since 1960 and still going ...

In semi-chronological order....

National Ordnance of So. El Monte, CA
1960-1977 (approx. 117,000)

Bullseye Gun Works of Miami, FL
1961-1962 (approx. 1700)

Rowen Becker of Waterville, OH
1961-1962 (less than 500)

Universal Firearms of Hialeah, FL
1962-1984 (approx. 480,000)

Alpine Industries of Azusa, CA
1962-1965 (estimated 25,000-30,000)

Erma's Firearms Mfg of Steelville, OH
1962-1965 (approx. 6500)

Millville Ordnance of Millville, NJ
1962 (approx. 360)

Plainfield Machine of Plainfield, NJ (includes H&S, Williams Gun Sights)
1962-1978 (approx. 112,000)

Iver Johnson's Arms of Middlesex, NJ & Jacksonville, AR (includes AMAC)
1978-1990 (est. 96,700)

Rock Island Armory of Geneseo, IL
1979-1985 (less than 500)

Federal Ordnance of So. El Monte, CA
1980-1982 (approx. 900)
1985-1986 (aprox. 1000)

Springfield Armory of Geneseo, IL
1995-1998 (15,000 receivers)

Israel Arms Int'l of Houston, TX (includes FI, iai, ARMS *)
1996-2002 (approx. 12,700)

Auto Ordnance of Worcester, MA
2005-current (unknown qty but in excess of 20,000)

Fulton Armory of Savage, MD
2012-current (est. 1000-1200)

James River Armory as RockOla Firearms Mfg
2014-current (less than 500 but still going)

Inland Mfg of Dayton, OH
2015-current (5000 and counting)
-----------------------------------------------------------

(* IAI/iai was initially Firearms Int'l; Receivers and parts manufactured for IAI were used by ALM, Time Precision and are still in use by Classic Firearms)


Jim,
researching .30 cal. carbine history since 2005 and still going ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote onlyabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2017 at 7:06pm
Here is another "experimental" for your edification...

It has a serial number of X371.
The stock is marked 219 & JAN 2 1963.
The receiver is "weird" in that it is stamped with a widely spaced 1 and 0.
It is marked (under sight) HIALEAH.FLA.

It is a fine shooter that I have enjoyed a lot and I was able to get it for [in my mind] a pretty good price.

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated as there is little information on these on line.
 
I have higher quality photos that I can send you out-channel if you wish.




















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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2017 at 10:45pm
Thanks for posting the pics.

Would be interested in seeing pics of the gas piston cylinder and how it's attached. Also interested in knowing the number of lands and grooves the barrel has: 12, 2 or 4.

You can post here, PM me or e-mail me direct at jim@UScarbineCal30 dot com.

Most the two digit numbers on the left side of the receiver are together but not uncommon someone used single dies stamped separate instead of two together.

If you e-mail me I can give you a run down on what you have.

Thanks again

Jim

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onlyabill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 08 2017 at 1:06pm
The barrel has 12 groves. Under the rear sight it has "UNIVERSAL" on one line and "HIALEAH.FLA." on a second (did not see the UNIVERSAL until I took down the receiver). There is an underlined capital M on the magazine release. There is an unusual symbol on the underside of the safe/fire selector. It looks to be a very stylized S in a circle. I will email you additional photos (see my PM).

Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fhmfire1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 21 2018 at 3:58am
I have one of the x series carbines #x035 sure wish i could find out more info on it any suggestions would be great 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 21 2018 at 9:19am
I can't say much about any collector value of an X-marked Universal, but I bet it's a good shooting gun. We all know the Universal is considered the arm-pit of carbines, but the early ones have a lot to offer. I don't know of any serious Universal collectors that would offer a premium for the X-guns. I have SN:178xx with 16 stamped on the receiver, putting it somewhere close to late 63. The gun had that funky GI replica aluminum TH, which cracked while I was taking it down for cleaning. I just popped a T4 GI housing in and it's my go-to-gun for knocking around. It has a 12 land-n-groove barrel and a Inland gas-piston. The housing is welded to the barrel. Be very careful with the magazine-well section of that TH...that is the weakest part of the cast aluminum assembly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 21 2018 at 9:34am
Originally posted by fhmfire1 fhmfire1 wrote:

I have one of the x series carbines #x035 sure wish i could find out more info on it any suggestions would be great 


See post 4. Send the info to linked email in post.

Shy of getting in a time machine you probably won't find more info other than what is posted here and on the main pages.
However the research continues to reconstruct history. By people taking the time to respond to surveys as well as sharing information here we will eventually see a bigger picture.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fhmfire1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 21 2018 at 12:07pm
Thanks for the reply so far mine has been a good shooter it appears to have a few gi parts, as far as I can trace it has an uderwood round bolt , a single recoil rod ,pinned front sight ,solid slide.Don't really care about the value . im a shooter,I don't "collect" anything I can't use not a big wall hanger guy.more curious as year built but not finding any dates on the stock .many parts have no markings at all
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 21 2018 at 3:15pm
One good thing going for you is...if anything breaks on that gun, it can be replaced with plentiful USGI parts. Mine has a Universal barrel and receiver, everything else is GI.

Mine had an Underwood round bolt in it as well. Universal must have got a "special" on surplus .u. bolts.
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