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Extremely rare orignal late original S'G' 98%+ |
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norwich93
Recruit Joined: Jan 13 2016 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Posted: Sep 25 2016 at 11:26am |
As the by line says, "Extremely rare late original S'G' 98%+"
A few in the Carbine Club have seen this rifle I bought several years ago and have been meaning to take photos and post it (4 kids and a supervisor will kill gun time). When I first saw it I was in awe of the outside condition & it being a Grand Rapids, my favorite!!! I have have several with all crazy types of variations. While looking at the outside a few thing "JUMPED" out at me. First was the SG recoil plate, IP-N front sight (large sans serif 2 on the left, W-S'G' flip sight, the beautiful stock with Inland/SG buttplate, and a type IV (long arm) slide as I cleared the chamber. The SN is in the SG over run, 3.59 million marked with "SAGINAW S'G'" with oval highwood stock. Great cartouche and crossed cannons, large RSG in the sling well cut, flat tipped barrel band spring. Has very light evidence of having a sling in the oiler cut and by the barrel band swivel. The barrel band spring blunt end can be seen on the left side of the stock on the right hand side. Minor patina and very minor surface rust in a few spots. I have opened the rifle, when I bought it, showed 2 friends, once for Bill Ricca at the West Springfield Gun show last year, and today for a total of 5 times. The inside even made it a more special and significant rifle. The first thing I noticed was the absence of a marking on the bottom of the type IV slide, I was looking for S.G. so thought it might be an Inland marked on the inside. I saw the square ear, late small double dimple type III trigger housing with uncut rear wall but Inland rear wall points. Hammer in-the-white with yellow patina, hammer plunger in-the-white, S'G' sear and trigger with light tool groove on the back. Unmarked safety (I never removed the mag catch, safety, trigger, sear, or hammer, not even a pin. Bolt is like a Dulite finish S'G'-, blued firing pin, extractor almost in-the-white; I never took this apart. The slide. I removed the slide for markings, the guide was nicely blued with minor wear. There were no markings on the outside of the slide, inside S'G' consistent with type III slides. WOW! I have seen 4 of these, I own 3 and one is on this rifle. I knew this rifle was very special. The story keeps going!!! The stock was a type II with the 6 digit inked numbering in the slide well, most can be made out 33?2?0. Looking in the well and on the handguard (slight irregular overlapping fit) this rifle does not appear fired since the war, and if 1 mag went through it I would be surprised. The barrel is a 12-43 UEF, like new. Chamber in-the-white with long skirt, beautiful machining circles, strong lands and grooves that you can see the chamfering (sp) on the lands. A great example of a 98%+ original gun, a S'G', a last use of IP part on a late gun, original S'G' type IV slide, and the original inked digits in the slide well just makes this the best original carbine I own. Use this link to the Photobucket slide show. http://s265.photobucket.com/user/norwich93/slideshow/Original%20GR?sort=2 Thanks for looking, ask any questions and I'll try to answer. Regards, Rob Clark |
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Rob Clark
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shadycon
On Point Joined: Mar 16 2016 Location: NRV, Va. Status: Offline Points: 145 |
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Very nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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It's a very, very nice Carbine. Thanks for sharing!
I want to say respectfully that I disagree with the 98%+ condition assessment, though it is a very high condition Carbine, and relying upon photos alone can be difficult to assess condition. Opinions on grading of condition will vary, and there is a small degree of subjectivity. My assessment would probably be about 5 points lower. How was the 98%+ condition assessment reached? David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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norwich93
Recruit Joined: Jan 13 2016 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Thanks Dave. Condition is subjective. We are talking about a 73 year old piece of history and not a recently packed commemorative from a manufacturer, I'll call that 100% standard. To make it easier I start at 100% and deduct.
There are no issues to the stock or handguard, marks are crisp and prominent, no issues as far as scratches, pins, rebuild marks, etc. There is no evidence of carbon in the slide well. Deduct 1% for non-commercial blemishes. There is minor surface rust in a couple of small areas, I would say 1% of the entire surface area of metal. Looking at the buttplate the heel, the area with the most wear damage usually, is near perfect. All parts are properly finished and not altered. Wear on the barrel, near non-existent. I never saw chatter marks on lands in the rifling before. Deduct 1% again for non-commerical perfection. Other than a 100% condition USGI wartime carbine presentation piece (which I have seen several) this Grand Rapids is the best carbine I every saw in my 30 years of collecting. Just my input. |
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Rob Clark
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David Albert
Hard Corps Status Quo Challenger Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1003 |
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Rob,
There is no doubt it's one of the best condition Carbines around, and I don't want to tarnish that in any way. Thank you for your explanation of how you went about grading it. David Albert dalbert@sturmgewehr.com |
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NRA Life Member
Past Pres., The American Thompson Association Amer. Society of Arms Collectors OGCA/TCA/Carbine Club/GCA/IAA SAR Writer Author - The Many Firearm Designs of Eugene Reising Eagle Scout |
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Car Wash Chris
Grunt Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Dayton,Ohio Status: Offline Points: 161 |
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Oh that's a real beauty ! I would guess that late in production they were using everything left to finish Carbines, hence the IPN front sight. 1st one I have ever seen on a late S'G' but NO doubt original to that gun. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Chris |
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Lupus Dei
Hard Corps Club Secretary Emeritus Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: CCC Status: Offline Points: 1417 |
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Scott C.
On Point Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Waynetown IN Status: Offline Points: 161 |
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WOW!! That is a nice one, Rob, thanks for sharing it.
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norwich93
Recruit Joined: Jan 13 2016 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Julian dates usually are a 4 digit system, I couldn't figure out how this 6 digit would work.
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Rob Clark
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Car Wash Chris
Grunt Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Dayton,Ohio Status: Offline Points: 161 |
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I saw the ink in the channel of Rob's gun, but didn't want to hijack his thread. I followed up a lead from CCNL 362 2004 where Charlie Bricket had wrote about a stock he had { RSG Type 2 } that was un-used and had NO cartouche. But had a group of numbers in the channel like the OP's. He told me they were never able to conclude what it meant but their best guess was a Julian Date. When I googled Julian Date things get very complicated, this might be a good science project for someone in astrology and familiar with how time was kept in ancient times. So for now it seems the ink shows up mostly on RSG type 2 stocks. Grand Rapids was trying to cut out un-necessary steps in production so in my opinion I think it was done by whoever made the stock and not who assembled the Carbine. Chris |
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norwich93
Recruit Joined: Jan 13 2016 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Today's Julian date is 6217. Six is the last digit of the year and the 271st day in the year. They were mostly used by Ordinance personnel to determine how long a given piece of equipment was out of service or non-mission capable (NC). It was easy to determine, equipment out of service on Jan 1 2016 and returned serviceable on Sep 27 2016 would be 6217-6001 or 216 days NC this year. There was no reason to invent a six digit code. My theory its not S'G's mark but by the maker of the stock for some reason they needed.
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Rob Clark
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
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Rob, sweet ride!
As to the six digits, consider shift or machine number. We need to record all numbers and look for trends or numbers not used in certain positions. A tall task considering the ink is clearly easy removed. |
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Car Wash Chris
Grunt Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Dayton,Ohio Status: Offline Points: 161 |
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Well the ones with more than 4 digits just don't make sense as far as a Julian date is concerned. If we could figure out WHY they took the time to mark these then maybe we could conclude WHAT it means.
Maybe they had a bad batch of wood once and decided to mark them going further, so they could easily back track all the effected stocks. |
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Fantastic! Love the furniture. Thanks for sharing.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
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This |
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norwich93
Recruit Joined: Jan 13 2016 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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Thought it was affected, LOL. Robert Irwin did make a pretty crappy stock.
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Rob Clark
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4656 |
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Infected, Affected, Effected
It all started after the Germans bombed Peal Harbor!
Affected= has impact on
Effected= excecuted or produced changes
Effected changes affect things.
Infected= see Carbine-itis
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m1a1fan
Hard Corps Got Para? Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1736 |
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Germans?
Forget it, he's rolling.... |
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tenOCEE
Hard Corps Knows rear sights! Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: East Tenn Status: Offline Points: 1330 |
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Toga.
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norwich93
Recruit Joined: Jan 13 2016 Location: Connecticut Status: Offline Points: 40 |
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"The Germans got nuttin to do with it!"
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Rob Clark
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