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Ermas oddball questions

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prepmech View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prepmech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ermas oddball questions
    Posted: Oct 20 2018 at 4:49pm
Have had an Ermas M1 carbine sitting in my safe for a while now that I can't figure out what to do with.

It appears to be a bit of an oddball.  It has a longer tapered barrel with a single ramp style front sight.  The bolt has been polished and "turned".  It is a really nice gun, just not my taste.  

With it being an ermas, the question of the receiver being properly hardened is a concern.  How would I go about getting the hardness tested?  

I am not a fan of the tapered barrel, and concerned about the receiver.  The options I have been debating are:

A. Get the receiver tested, get a tax stamp (SBR) and cut the barrel down to before the taper and thread it.
B. Put a new barreled receiver on it (might as well just build a whole new gun)
C. Sell it
D. Let it sit in the safe for eternity

Any thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 20 2018 at 5:41pm
You're headed in the right direction not considering spending money on it. You may wind-up with enough invested to purchase a good GI shooter. One thing for sure, somebody out there is always looking for what you don't want...you just have to find them. My 2-cents....I don't keep anything I don't want and I have no safe-queens. I'd be looking for the guy that really wants that gun and use my $ to grab another USGI carbine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 22 2018 at 9:47am
Hi prepmech

I'm the researcher who looked into the Ermas and built the web page we have.

Would like to see some photographs of the Ermas you have before making some suggestions. If you need help posting them here just let us know.

Definitely recommend hold off on shooting it until we can see the photos. There are several of us still learning with the Ermas so you may find a buyer should you decide to sell.

One thing to look for, and include a pic of, is the right side of the receiver between the opening for the right bolt lug and rear sight. If it's not been hardened and been shot much the channel in this area the slide travels back and forth in will appear warped.

Jim
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prepmech View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prepmech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2018 at 8:20pm
Will get some pictures uploaded. 

It doesn't appear to have been shot much.  The channel doesn't show any signs of wear or warping.  At this point I think the only way to be certain if the receiver was properly hardened is to have it tested.

There is a place in town called 300 Below that freezes metal to make it more durable.  It doesn't affect the finish of the receiver like having it heat treating would.  My sister had them freeze her softball bat, and they did a barrel for my father-in-law's rifle.  I'm wondering if that would have an affect on the hardness, but haven't had a chance to talk with them yet.  It is definitely a cheaper option when you consider having to refinish the receiver.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 25 2018 at 10:06pm
I'm not familiar with the technology so recommend extreme caution. We have a gunsmith who is on the forum who has a background in metals. I'll ask him.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 26 2018 at 9:06am
Has to be about 20-years ago, but I recall some information concerning the deep-freeze technology. Even motorcycle engines were being frozen. Have not heard a thing since, so it's either one of those things that never caught on, or was so effective that it was stifled by people interested in preventing it's success. Many of us have heard about the carburetor back in the 60's that was capable of producing 100-MPG, but big oil stymied it....yeah...right. This one guy purchased a new Dodge that accidentally left the factory with one of these carburetors. As the story goes, Chrysler gave him a new Imperial just to get the car back.

I'm just sayin'. If the process was that effective, we'd be seeing and hearing more about the process. I'd be leery about investing in a perpetual motion machine, or ocean-front property in Arizona as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 26 2018 at 11:46am
I believe it is called cryogenic normalizing. I do not believe it hardens the metal. I believe it reduces or eliminates the stresses in the metal from machining and forming. This would reduce the possibility of stress fractures.

On the run, maybe some of our members can look into it online as far as hardening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 26 2018 at 12:17pm
Wayne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 26 2018 at 2:10pm
@wayne: Thanked!
So looking at that link it seems the cryogenic prosses is used on hardened metals or as a pretreatment of hardening. the process does not inherently harden the metal
So if the company is doing both I would think it would be OK.
Hardening has come a long way, Still, the receiver is subject to warp. The normalizing or cryo treatment may help reduce this warpage, Dunno?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2018 at 9:58pm
I heard back from the gunsmith with a background in metallurgy. He's heard of the cryogenic process but has no experience with using it on firearms.

The website of 300 Below indicates it can be used on firearms to improve their durability but provides no details. Anyone with firearm experience in relation to hardening would be asking how their process relates to the Rockwell hardness scale. That they don't include this information up front is unusual.

During and after WWII the standard for firearm manufacturing specifications in regards to hardness is the Rockwell hardness test scale. Without going into details that aren't needed here, what this means is steel that in going to be hardened or has been hardened uses the Rockwell test to set and test hardness specs.

The U.S. Army Ordnance standard for receiver hardness is 38-45 using the Rockwell C scale. Kuhnhausen, in his shop manual book on the .30 cal. carbines indicates 35 Rc would be acceptable for commercial receivers.

Who has a Rockwell hardness tester are companies who work with metal. Usually a Google search on Google maps will turn up a few. I did this about 10 years ago and found several local companies who offer Rockwell testing for only a few dollars if you don't need a certificate to go with it.

I'd recommend getting your receiver hardness tested by one of the places that have and use the Rockwell hardness test machines before considering 300 Below as it may save you the time and money if it's already been hardened properly.

One factor that figures into hardness standards and testing is the type of steel. The Ordnance spec for carbine steel was 4140 steel. Advertisements by Ermas back in the 60's indicate their receivers were cast using 4130 steel. You will need to know it's 4130 steel as you'll be asked before testing and/or before hardening. Here's a Wiki explanation of the low alloy steels in the 40xx range: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41xx_steel

So remember: 4130 steel, 38-45 Rc

My question for 300 Below would be ... can they harden 4130 steel to 38-45 Rc and will it retain that hardness?

https://www.300below.com/

Regarding your barrel, Ermas did make a sporterized version of the carbines as was popular with some people back in the 60's. Some owners also did it on their own or paid someone else to do it. Would still like to see photos of what you have.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prepmech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2018 at 5:05pm






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote prepmech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 30 2018 at 5:10pm
Going to try to find somewhere that can hardness test it for me. It is the only way to be sure.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 31 2018 at 2:54am
Looks like an Ermas factory original sporterized job. I've seen a few others they jeweled the bolt and added the bead sight up front, just not with the tapered barrel.

Normal place to have them test it is left side of the receiver below the stock line about even with the front lug on the bottom of the receiver.

Jim
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