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Data sheet. Who gets/reviews

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tenOCEE View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jan 02 2020 at 10:52am
Who does the paper data sheet (when mailed) go to?
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 03 2020 at 12:51pm
Data sheets are reviewed by
Dave Tennant
Ted Sidehamer 

Hard copies are currently being mailed to Bob Eakins, Keeper of the Data Sheets.

Hard copies can be mailed to:
Carbine Collectors Club
PO Box 5039
Brookfield CT 06804

You can also email the Data Sheets directly to me.


Data sheets are used for articles, most notably the manufacture updates which we lay out know usage of parts and where in the timeline.

When someone requests information they are not provided Data Sheets. we do our best to search for an answer to the question.
We never share who submitted the sheet. 

For those who who were members during the paper years will know one of the requirements of membership was to submit data sheets.

Some question how a mixmaster can help. What we can use is the receiver and barrel information as well as looking for odd or unusual parts markings.
This is where is is very helpful to share the exact markings and fonts as best as possible. If the front ring has a serif 1 vs l in the M1 it should be reported as so.

This online format should make it very easy for people to report. 

In addition to reporting your own carbine you can report of submit data sheets on carbines you have observed or see for sale. Of particular interest are Presentation carbines, Lineout/transfer carbines and parts.

There have been many items of interest posted on Facebook pages and elsewhere.  Yet the reporting is almost non existent. Please consider sharing. We cannot do it alone, but as group new discoveries can be found to report on.

There is a hidden post section that does not expose your post should you wish to submit. (link)
Or it can be emailed or PMed to us.
We can review and then move it to a un-hidden post should you choose.

The reason for a hidden submission works out very well for something we can do an article on.

On the note of articles, we welcome anyone wishing to pen an article.

I hope this answer some questions.

Best, Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 02 2020 at 10:57am
mail or email the data sheets all wind up with Bob Eakins, keeper of the DS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 02 2020 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

mail or email the data sheets all wind up with Bob Eakins, keeper of the DS


Dan, I know that when I emailed (13) data sheets last spring, I got failure notices on every one from Bob Eakins' account. I do know that Ted received all of them as he responded to each. Are there multiple "keepers" of the data sheets?

Edited by W5USMC - Jan 02 2020 at 7:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 02 2020 at 1:45pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

mail or email the data sheets all wind up with Bob Eakins, keeper of the DS


Dan, I know that when I emailed (13) data sheets last spring, I got failure notices on every one from Bob Eakins' account. I do now that Ted received all of them as he responded to each. Are there multiple "keepers" of the data sheets?


That's a question that several of us have posed to each other offline. Who has access to all the data sheets and info?
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 02 2020 at 4:45pm
We had an issue with the club email forwarding. This is due to Google and other servers. Bob is also having a separate issue with his email which he is addressing with his server. 

Anything emailed is backed up, so even though you get an error it is still backed up in the club datasheet email. The data sheets are reviewed by two people looking for possible "Featured Carbines"
I also have access but do not have the time to review them. If you want me to look at your specific data sheet please let me know.

If you need something specific let me know and I will forward to Bob via snail mail till we can get him up and running, preferably with a club email.

If you can email me directly if you have further questions as this is off topic of the post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 03 2020 at 9:24am
EDIT> I see that you've inserted an answer up above now, but it looks confusing and curious to do it that way after the fact. Question

Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

We had an issue with the club email forwarding. This is due to Google and other servers. Bob is also having a separate issue with his email which he is addressing with his server. 

Anything emailed is backed up, so even though you get an error it is still backed up in the club datasheet email. The data sheets are reviewed by two people looking for possible "Featured Carbines"
I also have access but do not have the time to review them. If you want me to look at your specific data sheet please let me know.

If you need something specific let me know and I will forward to Bob via snail mail till we can get him up and running, preferably with a club email.

If you can email me directly if you have further questions as this is off topic of the post.



So I sent a PM asking the same question about who are the two people reviewing the data sheets. It's a pregnant question that is impacting people who aren't comfortable submitting data sheets.


Edited by tenOCEE - Jan 03 2020 at 2:05pm
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 03 2020 at 12:51pm
Data sheets are reviewed by
Dave Tennant
Ted Sidehamer 

Hard copies are currently being mailed to Bob Eakins, Keeper of the Data Sheets.

Hard copies can be mailed to:
Carbine Collectors Club
PO Box 5039
Brookfield CT 06804

You can also email the Data Sheets directly to me.


Data sheets are used for articles, most notably the manufacture updates which we lay out know usage of parts and where in the timeline.

When someone requests information they are not provided Data Sheets. we do our best to search for an answer to the question.
We never share who submitted the sheet. 

For those who who were members during the paper years will know one of the requirements of membership was to submit data sheets.

Some question how a mixmaster can help. What we can use is the receiver and barrel information as well as looking for odd or unusual parts markings.
This is where is is very helpful to share the exact markings and fonts as best as possible. If the front ring has a serif 1 vs l in the M1 it should be reported as so.

This online format should make it very easy for people to report. 

In addition to reporting your own carbine you can report of submit data sheets on carbines you have observed or see for sale. Of particular interest are Presentation carbines, Lineout/transfer carbines and parts.

There have been many items of interest posted on Facebook pages and elsewhere.  Yet the reporting is almost non existent. Please consider sharing. We cannot do it alone, but as group new discoveries can be found to report on.

There is a hidden post section that does not expose your post should you wish to submit. (link)
Or it can be emailed or PMed to us.
We can review and then move it to a un-hidden post should you choose.

The reason for a hidden submission works out very well for something we can do an article on.

On the note of articles, we welcome anyone wishing to pen an article.

I hope this answer some questions.

Best, Dan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 03 2020 at 2:17pm
In years past I began collecting some data sheets for submittal. Some are interesting ones seen but not bought. This Fall I finally submitted two of them as a test. I think if there was a way of the typical member to peruse the majority of that info without the info divulging who submitted it and it protected the final digits of the serial I'd participate and submit many. As it is I don't perceive much benefit aside from a few people who have access to them. If that were to change, maybe it would change my mind.

There are a few active people in my area who have had many, or buy many or see many. They aren't active on any of the sites and can't submit them. Maybe there's an approach in the web based club none of us are considering as a possibility?
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 03 2020 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

In years past I began collecting some data sheets for submittal. Some are interesting ones seen but not bought. This Fall I finally submitted two of them as a test. I think if there was a way of the typical member to peruse the majority of that info without the info divulging who submitted it and it protected the final digits of the serial I'd participate and submit many. As it is I don't perceive much benefit aside from a few people who have access to them. If that were to change, maybe it would change my mind.

There are a few active people in my area who have had many, or buy many or see many. They aren't active on any of the sites and can't submit them. Maybe there's an approach in the web based club none of us are considering as a possibility?

For those reading or following this thread:
There is a quid pro quo. 
We provide the forum, publish articles, do spotters reports etc. 
Members are asked to help by being a part of the community and submit data sheets and or report carbine related items. As an added bonus for those that contribute we offer CMP affiliation.

The club used to charge dues and you were asked to submit data sheets and report findings as well as write in about articles if you had an observation.
The dues was basically the cost of printing and mailing. No one was drawing a salary.

Fast forward we are online, we do not charge dues, yet the forum is free for all. There are hosting and web costs. Yet we do not charge dues or membership fees and in case no one noticed, we are advertisement free! It is the generosity of some long time members that keep it going.

Some members like yourself contribute with your knowledge. 
Several take the time to look up and provide answers or help in anyway they could.
The vast majority of members do not take the time to introduce themselves not even properly fill out the registration.  They post nothing nor contribute. 
I am OK with that as maybe once in a while someone will share something of interest.

Several email the club and demand "CMP Affiliation" because they clicked a few buttons to join, yet have no posts, contribute nothing and do not even care about carbines. 
Is it too much to ask for members to submit data sheets?

as to your questions above:

On more than a few occasions we have two or more data sheets that may possibly be the same carbine. By having the full serial number we can reduce the duplication error. If you are uncomfortable then you can use a lower case x for the last two digits. Remember some serial numbers has an X suffix so we need some way to not confuse say a 6 digit with an X from a 7 digit 

The benefit is not for the few people that have access, the benefit is for all when we do a manufacturers update.

The data sheets have been on the internet for years and people love to use them, but not all submit them. One auction I won had a data sheet proudly displayed. The seller never heard of the club.

We have been working on how to do a data sheet online that would go right into a data base. Ideally something that members can access info in serial ranges.
Its a lot of work and will not be done overnight.

But if data sheets and reporting is not flowing in then it is all in vain. 

the big project would be back filling the 40 years of data sheets.

Anyone like doing data input? Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 04 2020 at 11:51am
The original Carbine Club was waning and had it's issues with maintenance by the then operators. You could feel it wasn't an active operation before it closed permanently, back when I originally compiled some data sheets that weren't sent in. Two of those sheets done then were just sent in here a couple of months ago. 5 yrs ago I probably paid the CCC membership once and perhaps sent in a sheet to qualify for CMP association. It's not known if that info was sent to CMP.
From reports on websites the original Club (near the end) was wasting any attention it received from fresh membership by failing to communicate timely and delaying updates to CMP for qualifiations for buying. That fostered an air of disorganization and people didn't feel connected. Many just went to the GCA for qualification. Perhaps it had run it's course and the environment changed to where the members weren't interested anymore.

Look, I don't know the players and only Jim Mock's name is evident in research compilation of this website on the research pages--of course the data compiled from the original Club is there too. The fact that I don't know the players should indicate that there's a separation existing. The work Jim has contributed here isn't fathomable, is brilliant and deeply layered. This iteration of a Carbine Club POSTING FORUM has a chance to flourish in an internet environment for certain but something it struggles with is that some of the original Carbine Club contributors won't partake in the operation here. I'm not ignoring the contributors who posted then and are here, but people like Jim Flavin and Brian Quick didn't/don't participate here. Jim always posted on Milsurps. Brian posts on other sites. The openness to posting on the site feels good, but there is growth needed and maturing needed. There's a separation many of us feel and it's not something we are fostering. Quid Pro Quo is something given for something received but is it coming back to those giving?

Regarding the data sheets, I'm confident that the issue preventing me in participating won't be rectified in the short term. I've expressed my desire for the site to grow and have promoted it on other sites and still feel that way. We all know each other well enough to understand our positions. The act of mailing them to Bob directly wouldn't change the ultimate issue when they're turned around and distributed for viewing or even data entry in a database by someone else. It's probably well known that I'm heavily opinionated but also vehemently protective about ethical behavior in the hobby to the point of publicly calling out the abusers. There's some growth that has to happen and it's not just my opinion. Several people have conveyed to me a similar attitude of it feeling like it's an us and them climate with the them being a small number. I wish the best here, and the people who built the original Club aren't the ones conveying this air described mast of them aren't active here from what I know. It won't be changed if it's not discussed. If it's not changed the info won't flow both directions here but will instead flow to other sites like always happens. This is intended as a constructive critique and hope it's received as an opportunity.
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Hey guys

tenOCEE brings up a number of good points and questions. This thread is on the datasheets so I'll stick to that topic alone. Though I really wanna address that feeling of separation between "us and "them". Maybe in another thread.

Also, for clarification, 100% of the credit for this discussion forum goes to New2brass with an assist from Ted Sidehamer. Now assisted by all of you. Had New2brass not stepped up and taken on the tasks "The Club" would have ended with the last published newsletter mailing. I wanted nothing to do with running the Club or the forum simply because I'm overwhelmed with all there is to do with the websites. Again, another post will address some of this. On to the datasheets....

The datasheets have been an issue and continue to be an issue for a number of reasons. The biggest issue is how to make the data available and useful. With the lead-in being how to get the data entered so it can be available and useful. All under the umbrella of the concerns for privacy.

The three biggest problems:

#1: A software program constructed to organize and sort it all and integrate with the internet or whatever means of accessing the data. With a security system for privacy.

#2: A person who has the background and knowledge to set it all up and keep it working.

This requires someone with the background, knowledge, and years of experience to get it right the first time with the flexibility of tweaking it. Someone who knows the best software program for the job and how to work with it. Over the years I've done data entry projects and database management enough to know this isn't something just anyone can learn to do. Add to it that it needs to be affordable.

I know of one person who is very capable with the needed background and software program. He was asked for help and opted out for his own personal reasons.

These two reasons together are the biggest roadblock. BUT, and an important BUT, do we not continue to collect data in the meantime? Do we just let it all go until we find such a person or the technology that doesn't require such a high level of knowledge and experience? Knowing over time carbines get rebuilt by owners and subsequent owners and the longer we wait to collect the data the less likely the data we eventually get will not have the value of why we collect it in the first place?

The answer to this paragraph above is best to collect it asap and hang onto it until the person and software become a reality. Even if it's not being used in the meantime the data has been captured and not lost to time. Access to what we have now I'll discuss farther below.

#3: Data Entry

This can be divided into two sections....

3a Data we already have is all on paper. Entering the data in a program is tedious and takes time but it's fairly straight forward and simple. I don't see this as a major roadblock just a hurdle that can be conquered with the help, time, and patience. Knowing there tens of thousands of data sheets that need to be entered.

3b Future Data we Receive/Collect I would hope the software program would allow for data entry via an electronic form. With hard copies people submit simply being entered by a few volunteers. So this subsection kinda falls under the first two reasons above.

Building a web page or web pages that give step by step instructions on what data to look for is a simple can-do. There is at least one person who has built simple instructions in web page format already. I think there is also a second person but that memory fails me at the moment.

https://www.instructables.com/id/HOW-TO-FILL-OUT-A-CARBINE-CLUB-DATA-SHEET-FOR-AN-M/

I would hope whatever program we end up using could be integrated with the instructions.

Data & Access

Keep in mind the collection of datasheets preceded the invention of a home computer. As the computers, software, and ability became available over a period of about 15-20 years the need for a technical person to make it happen continued to grow. Fighting against this was a resistance to change. In part due to the monumental task of data entry. In part due to privacy concerns. In part due to those who have resisted computers and change. One of the challenges we have been up against for many years with this forum and all the web pages you now see. Something I'll discuss in that separate post about the feeling of "us and them".

Keep in mind Bob Eakins still works full time in his 70's and has his own time consuming personal challenges just like we all do. To include making the transition to a world of e-mail and internet foreign to the one he started with many years ago. He very recently reaffirmed his commitment to keep doing the job. Communication with Bob has been frustrated at times for various reasons but the efforts have not been abandoned. We're hoping enough progress has been made to overcome some of the issues since the transition to this forum and its websites.

Simple inquiries about a particular serial number have gotten a simple fairly quick response. Sometimes faster than others. The more complicated the inquiries the more time it requires and takes. With some inquiries asking for too much given the the data is all on hard copies filed by serial number and not readily available like it would be if in a database. Also, whatever database someone should have decided on in 1992 or so may or may not be compatible with databases available today.

When a researcher working on a particular in depth project wanted to access the data in depth (such as Brian Quick, Chris Albright) it required sending them the hard copies or making copies and sending them. The former being risky the latter requiring a lot more time and expense. It's easy to find faults with this system but alternatives have been non-existent. Scanning and making electronic copies makes a lot of sense but the resistance to anything electronic due to those who would abuse it or sell it nixed that idea.

The number of in depth research projects have been done by only a handful of people over the years. In part due to the time involved in sorting thru the data. Which we cannot expect Bob Eakins to do.

Current Situation

All of the above pretty well spells it out. We're collecting whatever data we can on an ongoing basis to preserve it. Since our move to the forum and internet we've been joined by many of you. We're hoping someone will come along that has the technical abilities to help make it happen as it should be.

The big roadblock to you is the big roadblock to all of us. You don't like it, we don't like it, but we do the best we can in the meantime.

I've stayed out of datasheet management because of all I have already. I'm kept aware of the drawbacks and progress but New2brass and Marty Black have been working to get communications with Bob more timely without the communication problems.

I'd ask you all keep in mind New2brass wears many hats and many by default. Which is a lead in to that other post I keep referring too. Not tonight. Hope this helps the understanding.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 05 2020 at 6:18pm
Jim, thank you. You always have a tactful and diplomatic candor to your delivery. I can't offer any experience to address the creation of a data management system for the sheets.

Regarding the hats being worn by default, I'm positive that it's a challenge to operate a web site. Though the traffic here (or on any Carbine forum) isn't very high. But I know that when told about some of the trials/challenges on managing it my response was to offer some possible assistance, however it wasn't even acknowledged. That was probably a year ago or more. Very recently Dan asked if I could possibly aid in some minor function to which I responded positively that I'd be agreeable and again there was no further acknowledgement. I don't know,  perhaps that contributes a bit to an alienating perception. For a minute it was like Charlie Brown looking at Lucy holding the football again. Sleepy So some of those hats are actually being worn by a decision and choice. I'm positive you wouldn't be aware of these instances. It's not my site. A man can do with it what he chooses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 06 2020 at 11:27am
It looks to me like the only realistic way to deal with this situation would be to hire a data base management company to develop a system and input all existing data. I'm not sure this would be realistic either since costs involved would run into many thousands of dollars. And who would be willing to shell out that kind of money to accomplish this task. I certainly don't have the expertise to take on such a task. Nor do I have the time or resources.  But I'm going to toss out an idea just for the heck of it. Perhaps some agency such as the NRA might work thru one of their foundations to hire/take on some enterprising young college interns to do just that. It might be worth contacting their museum folks to see if they might have any practical suggestions.
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