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Couple of questions on my NPM

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john843 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john843 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Couple of questions on my NPM
    Posted: Feb 01 2021 at 9:50pm
I was recently given a NPM, ser.# 4267xxx. It's a bring-home from the guy that brought it (or rather had it shipped along with a jeep and two winches he paid a whopping total of $64 dollars for when he left Belgium in '46). It has a non-bayonet IBM barrel, type 3 sight, type 3 barrel band and the stock is OI. From the info I've been able to gather, this would all indicate that it had been through at least one refit. With this ser.# being on the later end of NPM's production, is it likely that the refit would have been done overseas? or were they only done here? He acquired it early/mid '45 and had possession of it 'til a week ago. Also, could someone tell me what NS or SN on the safety selector means? I've been able to decipher a lot of the codes and stampings but am very much still learning with the help of this site. The rifle is in great shape. Mr. C, who ran a motor pool near Antwerp said it was a "Garage Queen" that spent most of it's service locked up in his quarters. It had only two small rust spots, one on the non-stamped side of the safety selector and a spot half the size of a nickel on the barrel band.
Oh, one more thing, Am I the only one that LOVES that distinctive "clack" sound when you're handling one?:) I actually remember hearing it on the old TV series "Combat" with Vic Morrow and in person when I first handled this very gun in the early '60's.
This is a remarkable site ya'll have here and thanks in advance for any replies.
John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 01 2021 at 10:14pm
Welcome to the forum. Yes, some carbines went through a rebuild overseas by FN in Belgium (1945-46).
The SN on your safety is the manufacturers code, it was made by Sargent & Co for NPM. 
Would love to see some pictures of your carbine. 
See below link concerning the rebuild process.
Wayne
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carbinekid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbinekid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2021 at 8:48am
sounds like a very interesting carbine. With the possibility of it having been rebuilt by FN, look the stock over closely for markings other than the IO you found in the sling well. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote firstflabn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2021 at 10:37am
..


Edited by firstflabn - May 23 2021 at 10:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2021 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by john843 john843 wrote:

It has a non-bayonet IBM barrel, type 3 sight, type 3 barrel band and the stock is OI. 

What is a non-bayonet IBM barrel? A type 3 barrel band has a bayonet lug. Pictures, we need pictures.
Wayne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john843 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2021 at 9:54pm
Wayne, thanks for the info and link. As for the barrel band, it is apparently a Type 2 and not a 3. Like I said, I'm like 2 weeks new to researching these and somehow I thought the 1 and 2 types were similar as opposed to the 2 and 3 being so but for the lug. Also, I didn't realize the "wing" looking part of the lug is integral to the band. Sorry about that. There is a crossed cannon stamp on the right side of the stock but is so faint, you can barely tell that that's what it is. On the left side of the stock there is a plainly stamped A and O next to each other and a faintly stamped Y next to them. The hammer is stamped HI or IH and there is a small P on top of the barrel towards the breech end. I'm still spotting things as I'm cleaning it so possibly I can learn more as I go.
I'm in the process of trying to get pics taken of it of a quality where you can actually see what's in the picture as opposed to the ones my flip phone takes. I would have to email them to someone and hopefully have them post them for me. I'll have them ready Wed. or Thur. nite if you or someone will let me send them to check out. I hate to start out on the forum being a PIA but I'm the least "digital" guy I know and would appreciate any help.

Thanks Again,
John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 02 2021 at 10:06pm
Originally posted by john843 john843 wrote:

I hate to start out on the forum being a PIA but I'm the least "digital" guy I know and would appreciate any help.
 
No worries, damn near everyone on this forum was new once too with lots of questions. PM sent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john843 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 04 2021 at 7:35am
While I'm waiting for my friend to get pics ready further looking resulted in finding a few more stampings. they are:

forward trigger mounting block(?)- numeral 23
rear sight- an H in a shield
trigger housing- N16
hand guard- NI OR NJ (very small and faint)
front sight-SN
slide- N
bolt- N over 14
sear- SW-N
hammer- H.I (the I is faint)
Hopefully I'll have pics in a day or so.
Also, I probably don't have the nomenclature correct for a couple of parts but I'm still learning:)

John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 04 2021 at 10:37am
FWIW I've bought five books since starting into this a few months ago.  My suggestion for the most useful starting book when looking over a specific carbine is Craig Riesch's U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production, 8th edition.   From there depending on your interest you may wish to get additional books.  But of the ones I bought, Riesch is the easiest to use for identifying parts, markings and differences. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hunterman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 04 2021 at 11:05am
Your hand guard may be a TN.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote john843 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 6:32am
Matt_X, Thanks for the referral on the Reisch book. In looking around about these things I've seen numerous references to his book and also the book by Larry Ruth.
Hunterman, thanks, I believe you're right.

John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote firstflabn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 9:14am
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Edited by firstflabn - May 23 2021 at 10:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 10:14am
Riesch is a handy reference is handy for parts markings. However, there are errors in the book and the serial number ranges not something that I would use to determine if a carbine is correct.

An example is the HI hammer. Riesch does not have the straight HI hammer listed for NPM in your serial range.

CCNL 125 NPM manufacturers update shows that the HN and HI have been observed on original carbines.

Bottom line Riesch is a good starter book if taken with a few grains of salt.

If you are serious then look into our clubs newsletters


WB series is also a fantastic. Larry Ruth is a long time club member and contributor. If you purchase a book directly from him he will sign it for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 10:24am
LOL.  I had the book in front of me to make sure I typed it correctly. 

John.
I have two books by Ruth and one by Scott & Ruth.  I would describe the first two as organized and focused around the design development and production story.  Additionally they provide much of the supporting documentation (letters, interviews) which provide the clues (and sometimes proof) about all the differences and similarities we see in the end product. 
So for example if you are interested in how and when National Postal Meter got involved, how their carbine manufacturing facilites got set up, and things like that, then you'll want to get Ruth's War Baby!.   


Edit:
Having been in a similar boat to John (having a new to me carbine and wanting to identify the parts for the data sheet) I'll say I regret having not bought Riesch's book first.  I would have asked less dumb questions and had an easier time using the various resources on the web.

I understand that I'll be pencilling in corrections and question marks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 10:51am
Matt, there are no dumb questions, and why in part that we are now online and have a forum.

Any question brings discussions, in discussions things can be learned by all.

I will say though we still encourage people to do their own research, buy the books, submit items of interest, etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2021 at 10:38am
Of course there are dumb questions and at times equally dumb answers. Far too many questions posted on this forum or about any other internet forum of any type subject matter could easily be answered with a few seconds or minutes of Google searching. Now of course that doesn't apply to every situation, but I do firmly believe that it applies to far too many of them.

I could make another statement about the continual interjection of links when an otherwise easy question is asked, but I'll leave that for another day...maybe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2021 at 4:16pm
"Dumb" defined is a lack of intelligence, as in IQ. "Ignorance" defined is a lack of knowledge or information. In a social setting, one example being a Discussion Forum, the difference between the two words is often lost for various reasons. But in all cases the difference between the two is an individual assessment and conclusion. Sometimes socially agreed upon by others who form the same conclusion.

The purpose of this particular forum is the exchange of information with the intent of raising the level of knowledge of those who wish to learn. With the messages posted here but also those who read the posts at some point now and in the future.

One's IQ is irrelevant in this environment. The concept is to help one another if we can and as best we can. Regardless of any level of intelligence or any level of knowledge.

This forum is where various degrees of strength come together in an attempt to help those with less overcome various barriers. Similar to helping a child or handicapped person accomplish a short term task such as tying their shoes or crossing a busy street.

Inevitably there will be those who can't help, those who think they can, those who can only help a little, some who can help more. Along with those who can help but choose not to do so. It's simply the nature of most any group of humans.

How someone helps or communicates what help they can helps the overall effort of learning. Take what's of value, ignore what's not.

From this perspective, which is my perspective, dumb questions and dumb answers often stimulate and motivate learning. Therefore are not "dumb" as they can build knowledge. To include reminding some of us where we once were and things we have forgotten that make us look and/or feel dumb. How someone chooses to share info isn't as important as the info they share.

Constructive positive suggestions are always welcome for the same reasons.

Kinda reminds me of a prayer: God grant me the serenity to ..

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote welbytwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 06 2021 at 6:38pm
good one Jim--should be mandatory read to join a forum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 07 2021 at 3:27pm
I've always agreed with the statement, "ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever." This pretty well sums it up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb 07 2021 at 9:33pm
Worth noting that smart people ask dumb questions too, it's part of being human. Also, helping is fine, but even parents have to let their child's hand go at some point.
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