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Couple of questions on my NPM |
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john843
Recruit Joined: Jan 29 2021 Location: south carolina Status: Offline Points: 97 |
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Posted: Feb 01 2021 at 9:50pm |
I was recently given a NPM, ser.# 4267xxx. It's a bring-home from the guy that brought it (or rather had it shipped along with a jeep and two winches he paid a whopping total of $64 dollars for when he left Belgium in '46). It has a non-bayonet IBM barrel, type 3 sight, type 3 barrel band and the stock is OI. From the info I've been able to gather, this would all indicate that it had been through at least one refit. With this ser.# being on the later end of NPM's production, is it likely that the refit would have been done overseas? or were they only done here? He acquired it early/mid '45 and had possession of it 'til a week ago. Also, could someone tell me what NS or SN on the safety selector means? I've been able to decipher a lot of the codes and stampings but am very much still learning with the help of this site. The rifle is in great shape. Mr. C, who ran a motor pool near Antwerp said it was a "Garage Queen" that spent most of it's service locked up in his quarters. It had only two small rust spots, one on the non-stamped side of the safety selector and a spot half the size of a nickel on the barrel band.
Oh, one more thing, Am I the only one that LOVES that distinctive "clack" sound when you're handling one?:) I actually remember hearing it on the old TV series "Combat" with Vic Morrow and in person when I first handled this very gun in the early '60's. This is a remarkable site ya'll have here and thanks in advance for any replies. John |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Online Points: 2959 |
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Welcome to the forum. Yes, some carbines went through a rebuild overseas by FN in Belgium (1945-46).
The SN on your safety is the manufacturers code, it was made by Sargent & Co for NPM. Would love to see some pictures of your carbine. See below link concerning the rebuild process.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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carbinekid
On Point Joined: Jan 24 2016 Location: SE Michigan Status: Offline Points: 438 |
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sounds like a very interesting carbine. With the possibility of it having been rebuilt by FN, look the stock over closely for markings other than the IO you found in the sling well.
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firstflabn
Grunt Joined: Jul 18 2016 Location: xxx Status: Offline Points: 187 |
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Edited by firstflabn - May 23 2021 at 10:16pm |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Online Points: 2959 |
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What is a non-bayonet IBM barrel? A type 3 barrel band has a bayonet lug. Pictures, we need pictures.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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john843
Recruit Joined: Jan 29 2021 Location: south carolina Status: Offline Points: 97 |
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Wayne, thanks for the info and link. As for the barrel band, it is apparently a Type 2 and not a 3. Like I said, I'm like 2 weeks new to researching these and somehow I thought the 1 and 2 types were similar as opposed to the 2 and 3 being so but for the lug. Also, I didn't realize the "wing" looking part of the lug is integral to the band. Sorry about that. There is a crossed cannon stamp on the right side of the stock but is so faint, you can barely tell that that's what it is. On the left side of the stock there is a plainly stamped A and O next to each other and a faintly stamped Y next to them. The hammer is stamped HI or IH and there is a small P on top of the barrel towards the breech end. I'm still spotting things as I'm cleaning it so possibly I can learn more as I go.
I'm in the process of trying to get pics taken of it of a quality where you can actually see what's in the picture as opposed to the ones my flip phone takes. I would have to email them to someone and hopefully have them post them for me. I'll have them ready Wed. or Thur. nite if you or someone will let me send them to check out. I hate to start out on the forum being a PIA but I'm the least "digital" guy I know and would appreciate any help. Thanks Again, John |
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Online Points: 2959 |
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No worries, damn near everyone on this forum was new once too with lots of questions. PM sent.
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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john843
Recruit Joined: Jan 29 2021 Location: south carolina Status: Offline Points: 97 |
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While I'm waiting for my friend to get pics ready further looking resulted in finding a few more stampings. they are:
forward trigger mounting block(?)- numeral 23 rear sight- an H in a shield trigger housing- N16 hand guard- NI OR NJ (very small and faint) front sight-SN slide- N bolt- N over 14 sear- SW-N hammer- H.I (the I is faint) Hopefully I'll have pics in a day or so. Also, I probably don't have the nomenclature correct for a couple of parts but I'm still learning:) John |
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 770 |
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FWIW I've bought five books since starting into this a few months ago. My suggestion for the most useful starting book when looking over a specific carbine is Craig Riesch's U.S. M1 Carbines Wartime Production, 8th edition. From there depending on your interest you may wish to get additional books. But of the ones I bought, Riesch is the easiest to use for identifying parts, markings and differences.
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hunterman
On Point Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 307 |
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Your hand guard may be a TN.
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john843
Recruit Joined: Jan 29 2021 Location: south carolina Status: Offline Points: 97 |
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Matt_X, Thanks for the referral on the Reisch book. In looking around about these things I've seen numerous references to his book and also the book by Larry Ruth.
Hunterman, thanks, I believe you're right. John |
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firstflabn
Grunt Joined: Jul 18 2016 Location: xxx Status: Offline Points: 187 |
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Edited by firstflabn - May 23 2021 at 10:15pm |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4658 |
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Riesch is a handy reference is handy for parts markings. However, there are errors in the book and the serial number ranges not something that I would use to determine if a carbine is correct. An example is the HI hammer. Riesch does not have the straight HI hammer listed for NPM in your serial range. CCNL 125 NPM manufacturers update shows that the HN and HI have been observed on original carbines. Bottom line Riesch is a good starter book if taken with a few grains of salt. If you are serious then look into our clubs newsletters |
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Matt_X
Hard Corps Joined: Nov 10 2020 Location: Phila, Penn Status: Offline Points: 770 |
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LOL. I had the book in front of me to make sure I typed it correctly. John. I have two books by Ruth and one by Scott & Ruth. I would describe the first two as organized and focused around the design development and production story. Additionally they provide much of the supporting documentation (letters, interviews) which provide the clues (and sometimes proof) about all the differences and similarities we see in the end product. So for example if you are interested in how and when National Postal Meter got involved, how their carbine manufacturing facilites got set up, and things like that, then you'll want to get Ruth's War Baby!. Having been in a similar boat to John
(having a new to me carbine and wanting to identify the parts for the
data sheet) I'll say I regret having not bought Riesch's book first. I
would have asked less dumb questions and had an easier time using the
various resources on the web. I understand that I'll be pencilling in corrections and question marks.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Online Points: 4658 |
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Matt, there are no dumb questions, and why in part that we are now online and have a forum. Any question brings discussions, in discussions things can be learned by all. I will say though we still encourage people to do their own research, buy the books, submit items of interest, etc.
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Of course there are dumb questions and at times equally dumb answers. Far too many questions posted on this forum or about any other internet forum of any type subject matter could easily be answered with a few seconds or minutes of Google searching. Now of course that doesn't apply to every situation, but I do firmly believe that it applies to far too many of them.
I could make another statement about the continual interjection of links when an otherwise easy question is asked, but I'll leave that for another day...maybe. |
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sleeplessnashadow
Admin Group Joined: Nov 09 2015 Location: SoCal Status: Offline Points: 1150 |
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"Dumb" defined is a lack of intelligence, as in IQ. "Ignorance" defined is a lack of knowledge or information. In a social setting, one example being a Discussion Forum, the difference between the two words is often lost for various reasons. But in all cases the difference between the two is an individual assessment and conclusion. Sometimes socially agreed upon by others who form the same conclusion.
The purpose of this particular forum is the exchange of information with the intent of raising the level of knowledge of those who wish to learn. With the messages posted here but also those who read the posts at some point now and in the future. One's IQ is irrelevant in this environment. The concept is to help one another if we can and as best we can. Regardless of any level of intelligence or any level of knowledge. This forum is where various degrees of strength come together in an attempt to help those with less overcome various barriers. Similar to helping a child or handicapped person accomplish a short term task such as tying their shoes or crossing a busy street. Inevitably there will be those who can't help, those who think they can, those who can only help a little, some who can help more. Along with those who can help but choose not to do so. It's simply the nature of most any group of humans. How someone helps or communicates what help they can helps the overall effort of learning. Take what's of value, ignore what's not. From this perspective, which is my perspective, dumb questions and dumb answers often stimulate and motivate learning. Therefore are not "dumb" as they can build knowledge. To include reminding some of us where we once were and things we have forgotten that make us look and/or feel dumb. How someone chooses to share info isn't as important as the info they share. Constructive positive suggestions are always welcome for the same reasons. Kinda reminds me of a prayer: God grant me the serenity to .. Jim |
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welbytwo
Hard Corps Advanced Collector Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 803 |
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good one Jim--should be mandatory read to join a forum
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Smokpole
Hard Corps Joined: Oct 21 2019 Location: Madison ohio Status: Offline Points: 1057 |
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I've always agreed with the statement, "ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever." This pretty well sums it up.
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OGCA Life member
NRA Life member Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member |
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Why Carbines?
Hard Corps Joined: Dec 27 2015 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Worth noting that smart people ask dumb questions too, it's part of being human. Also, helping is fine, but even parents have to let their child's hand go at some point.
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