The Carbine Collectors Club

Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine


Forum Home Forum Home > The Club > General Discussion > Parts Markings
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Collecting and Correcting

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
floydthecat View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Oct 13 2016
Location: Mississippi
Status: Offline
Points: 1996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Collecting and Correcting
    Posted: May 02 2020 at 7:54am
Musings during the Corona Virus house arrest.

I do not call myself a collector of original carbines. I have what I consider to be good shooters and try to leave it at that. However, one can sometimes run across that carbine that appears to be almost correct, or correct enough.....very tempting to get into correcting it for the joy of it. It could be a well-fired shooter with diminished collector value, but still tempting.

International included a build-sheet of any pick-up they manufactured that should have stayed with the vehicle when sold. The reason was that they would use whatever parts they had on the assembly line and it could vary from one truck to the next. It's a shame we don't have build-sheets for carbines, but that would have been way down on the priority list during manufacturing. I understand there are certain ways to document how a carbine most likely left the factory and some of that may be...it just looks right. It seems to me that things get tricky around transitional serial numbers and maybe a best guess is what we have in some cases.  Some things such as sights, barrel-bands, safeties, bolts and mag catches can be fairly easy to nail down as correct, but some components can't.

Near the serial number transition range from dog-leg hammers to type 3's, type II and III safeties, type I and II sears, type 2 and 3 mag. catches...the determination of what is correct seems to get sticky.

Is there any accepted range of serial number transitions that we allow for..."it could be either"? If a carbine within say....20,000 numbers either side of a point at which we know hammers transitioned from dog-legs to type 3's, can we say that a type III or a dog-leg hammer could be correct? I use the hammer as an example, the same question applies to other components as well.
Back to Top
Why Carbines? View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Dec 27 2015
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 883
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 9:53am
While there's a good foundation of when parts changeovers occurred, it will never be prefect for a myriad of reasons. I think it's worth adding that if you see a certain source that quotes serial ranges, do not ever think those quotes are perfect, production didn't work that way.
Back to Top
David Milisock View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: Aug 03 2019
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 334
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David Milisock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 10:02am
You're asking questions that I've thought about. 1, did companies keep accurate enough records to determine parts transitions and 2, did those records reflect actual assembly practices?

How can you judge parts without stamping?  How do you know that months or even a year after a part change an older part was found and installed? For that matter that a new part change was not installed earlier due to a shortage?

My two carbine shooters are notorious for parts with no markings. It does not matter to me because their value is as actual working firearms.
David Milisock
Back to Top
floydthecat View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Oct 13 2016
Location: Mississippi
Status: Offline
Points: 1996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 11:20am
I usually never consider trying to correct one, but I stumbled into a 3.30 SG that was considerably close to what I think is correct. Just having the correct high-wood stock (no arsenal rebuild marks) and RSG 2-rivet hand guard goes a long way I think. There are just a couple of parts that maybe could or could not be correct. It has a T3 SG marked hammer, a SG marked T2 firing pin, a T1 unmarked sear and a T3 unmarked safety.

I am thinking/asking if these could possibly be correct? 
Back to Top
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 11:26am
The question you pose is a big part of why the Carbine Club, Now the Carbine Collectors Club, has been collecting information via data sheets and questions to the members.
We see bands of certain parts usage including known transferred parts and those that were not recorded.

Patterns have been observed including earlier parts used after later parts which is explained as first in, last out.

The great shame of it is people reading a book with a defined range and take that as fact, then swap out parts that might otherwise have been correct.
Back to Top
tenOCEE View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Knows rear sights!

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: East Tenn
Status: Offline
Points: 1330
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 11:54am
The data sheets are valuable, but you have to have honesty with them. And people correct Carbines then submit data sheets afterwards. Not everybody will submit it as a correction. Why the Hades do people even bother doing this? It might be relevant ONLY if you staple the original configuration one to the corrected one but again, almost nobody would do this. Bob Eakins isn't online so he wouldn't see the example I'm recalling of an active collector posting that they're ready to submit one now that he's done doing the correction. Other examples are that the most notorious fakers and proven liars were Carbine Club members There's too much money to be made for some people to behave honestly.

I've got a mid production Winchester with a Standard Products sear. Everything else makes sense about the thing. It's in very nice condition and everything matches otherwise. One early SP I have makes sense on all parts and it presents very nicely but has an Inland type IV slide and Inland high wood. I don't think any of the items show as documented transfers.
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
Back to Top
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 12:17pm
Yes, you have to be honest when submitting and is part of the club honesty policy.
Careful scrutiny does need to be done with reading data sheets when doing a manufacture update.
And the obvious problem is when someone buys a corrected carbine and were not made aware of the fact.

The good is we have data sheets from before correcting is a thing. The club also gained a ton of information by going to the CMP when got in shipments. Orest Michaels was fantastic in helping the club and reporting findings.

You make my point about the unfortunate correcting of carbines. WB mentions Winchester buying parts after the early 44 shutdown of carbine production at 8 factories. 
We know of the Underwood receivers used at Winchester, but what about the rest of the parts?

Its a shame some people sell their sole for a mere bag of shells.
Back to Top
floydthecat View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Oct 13 2016
Location: Mississippi
Status: Offline
Points: 1996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 12:35pm
What I take away so far is....unless it is something blatantly and obviously out of place, it’s better off left alone?
Back to Top
tenOCEE View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Knows rear sights!

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: East Tenn
Status: Offline
Points: 1330
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 12:37pm
Dan, that's right. People have to keep in mind that other data sheets might already be on file for their Carbine(s). Some of us collect data on Carbines we see for sale and note general parts or if corrected looking or not.

Good point about the Win parts gathering after other manufactures were winding up and shuttering.
And, yes, those reviewing the sheets, we all know have to be evaluated with a cautious (skeptical?) eye.

Here's a recent GB offering with a note from Bob Eakins to the person submitting the data sheet. Bob can't see the problems with the Carbine through the sheet. And yet the seller is using it as a method to help validate the Carbine to viewers who don't know it's a poor correction with reproduction parts. I'm not very familiar with the data sheets so maybe it's listed as a correction but the slide is altered from some other maker (IBM?) and isn't listed as being modified.





Edited by tenOCEE - May 02 2020 at 1:27pm
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
Back to Top
tenOCEE View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Knows rear sights!

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: East Tenn
Status: Offline
Points: 1330
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

What I take away so far is....unless it is something blatantly and obviously out of place, it’s better off left alone?


Usually, yes. Advanced people change parts, sure. They don't advertise it. A trigger group here, a stock there. Some will mangle the noses of stocks to hide type II band marks. As time goes on most of us who have done parts changing, do it less and less. Of the IPs I've handled or owned, four come to mind as probably original. One had the wrong stock. The corrections done before or after I owned them run the entire possible variation table--poor to excellent.
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
Back to Top
Why Carbines? View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Dec 27 2015
Location: Tennessee
Status: Offline
Points: 883
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 12:55pm
Clearly, it's just not the books where correctors, for what ever reasons, go down what turns out the be the wrong path. Any source that uses serial numbers ranges for parts usage understandably could not have seen every carbine made and thus come up with the perfect analysis. Once again, there are a few very good sources out there, but even the writers of those publications would say it's impossible to not act human and get everything included and absolutely correct.
Back to Top
Valk99 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Apr 28 2020
Location: La Porte, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valk99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 1:04pm
Thanks for this topic I asked a similar question yesterday regarding my carbine...... the Underwood slide in an early Winchester......my guess is its a mixmaster; Barrel, receiver, bolt seem correct stock maybe, hand guard nope, sight not, the rest not real sure working on it. 
While I'm new to carbines I'm not new to shooting and would class myself as shooter and not a collector. 
Bought my carbine from CMP auction and along comes the Corona virus and I've got time on my hands. I found the "Bavarian Club" got my interest peeked (seems it's been in Bavaria & Austria)  and here I am. 
I plan on continuing to shoot my carbine but would like to find out as much as I can about its history as I can. 
Thanks to this great website the couple times I've posted someone has posted an answer pretty quickly and as a new guy that's something I really appreciate. It's given me, I think a good kick start with this little project.  Completed and submitted the Data Sheet yesterday interesting process learned a bunch.
Ken
 
Back to Top
tenOCEE View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Knows rear sights!

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: East Tenn
Status: Offline
Points: 1330
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Valk99 Valk99 wrote:

Thanks for this topic I asked a similar question yesterday regarding my carbine...... the Underwood slide in an early Winchester......my guess is its a mixmaster; Barrel, receiver, bolt seem correct stock maybe, hand guard nope, sight not, the rest not real sure working on it. 


If the rear sight has been changed odds are it's been rebuilt. Some Carbines in private hands got the adjustable sight swapped in the basement to make it easier to dial in agin yard varmints. Most often it's been rebuilt. Staking of the rear sight usually tells that tale.
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
Back to Top
tenOCEE View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Knows rear sights!

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: East Tenn
Status: Offline
Points: 1330
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 1:43pm
Here's a pic of the slide on the IP with Carbine Club reference. Grand Rapids slide? I say no. The D isn't completely removed at the rear of the bucket, but the other maker's mark is gone. Maybe it's a "Petersen" slide but not a Pedersen.

My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
Back to Top
floydthecat View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps


Joined: Oct 13 2016
Location: Mississippi
Status: Offline
Points: 1996
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 2:44pm
Looks like an SF slide to me.
Back to Top
Valk99 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Apr 28 2020
Location: La Porte, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valk99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 2:55pm
I think it was rebuilt by Bavaria as I bought it direct from CMP......hoping I can determine  (guess) eventually how many of the current parts were with it when it left Winchester. Here is the sight staking. Thanks
Back to Top
ncin1911 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point
Avatar

Joined: Dec 13 2018
Location: Hoosier State
Status: Offline
Points: 435
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ncin1911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2020 at 9:39am
Originally posted by tenOCEE tenOCEE wrote:

Here's a pic of the slide on the IP with Carbine Club reference. Grand Rapids slide? I say no. The D isn't completely removed at the rear of the bucket, but the other maker's mark is gone. Maybe it's a "Petersen" slide but not a Pedersen.



For shame. Cry


Back to Top
tenOCEE View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar
Knows rear sights!

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: East Tenn
Status: Offline
Points: 1330
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tenOCEE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2020 at 10:00am
That's a good zoom. Looks like the original stamp wasn't even well removed. The data sheet on the never before submitted serial shows what is possible...and even likely.
My sig: Seen an IP or S'G'? Add it to my registry. We'll check consecutives.
https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/
Back to Top
Valk99 View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit
Avatar

Joined: Apr 28 2020
Location: La Porte, Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valk99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2020 at 1:33pm
Thanks for the compliment tenOCEE believe me its the camera not the photographer:) 
From what I read in the "Mysteries" section there is a statement indicating the the Bavarian's didn't remove OEM markings which is the reason I "think" it was rebuilt/upgraded in Bavaria prior to transfer to Austria OO - from the pictures there was a halfhearted attempt to remove ID/Cal BUT I "Assume" the sight was already upgraded and well staked so no attempt to remove the Winchester, TM and serial no. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.