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Church Magazine Update

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    Posted: Oct 04 2017 at 7:58pm

November 2017-F
Church Magazine Update

Carbine Club Newsletter issue #265 (Nov 1998) contains an excellent five page article by Larry Horner on magazine markings. This article included information on what has come to be known as the "Church" magazine. As a lead in to what follows here's Larry's short article on this magazine.

"CHURCH" MAGAZINES



"The magazines with the line drawing of what appears to be a church with a steeple were made in West Germany. These welded angle cut magazines are very similar to US Military issue but have a parkerized finish. I bought several boxes from a dealer at the Houston gun show in late 1993. The unmarked cardboard (not corrugated) boxes contained ten unwrapped magazines each. The boxes were sealed with cellophane tape that had turned yellow and was coming loose. Inside each box was a slip of paper that displayed a lot number, inspector's initials, and WEST GERMANY. I have misplaced the tags, but I am confident the magazines are in fact of West German origin."

During my research on the carbines used by the police and self defense forces of West Germany and Austria I came into possession of several of these magazines. I had received information from several sources who indicated they had also purchased these magazines from a company in Texas in the 1990's. They confirmed Larry's information on the boxes having no markings but contained a paper slip indicating the magazines were made in West Germany.

I received information from separate sources the church logo has also been seen on cartridge links of an ammo belt. The belts were used by the German Bundeswehr with the West German M3 machinegun manufactured post WWII by Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH in Düsseldorf. It is believed the company who made belt links with the church logo was a subcontractor for Rheinmetall.




In July 2017 a seller on the German equivalent of Gunbroker, EGun.de, listed a box of new old stock cartridge links for caliber 7.62 x 51mm. The listing did not show if the links had markings but on the outside of the box was the same church logo

NATO Stock Number 1305-12-124-5709
Cartridge Belt, DM1, for 250 cartridges 7.62 x 51
1 Piece
WM1 6b/02/11180/0001/5
Lot Number 10
Hein. Hülter Jr., Iserlohn
C-K9-III-x-65




The number 12 within the NATO stock number identifies the item was for use by Germany. The sequence with WM is believed to be the contract number. The date of manufacturer is believed to be 1965. The current NATO stock system indicates this part has been replaced. The supply sources still on record are various German military logistics supply agencies.

Hein. Hülter Jr. in Iserlohn was a metal factory founded in 1890 (magazine advertisement sold on EBay Germany from unknown German magazine in 1929). Iserlohn is located approximately 90 miles east of Düsseldorf in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany.




The current German Company Registry shows no records for the company. Heinrich Hülter, Jr. in Iserlohn has been the assignee of a number of patents over the years with the last application filed in 1969 and published in 1972. The patents include a number of innovations for belt feeding mechanisms.

The church logo used by Heinrich Hülter, Jr. could not be located in the European trademark database. The church depicted is similar in appearance to several churches in the vicinity of Düsseldorf but may have been a church in Iserlohn before it burned down and has since been reconstructed using a different architectural design.




The magazines observed to date have all been 30 round magazines for the .30 caliber carbines.







Copyright: The Carbine Collector’s Club©

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 20 2022 at 11:36pm
I’m trying to get my hands on one of these 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dirty30Carbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 21 2022 at 11:43am
There’s a member here that’s got 2 of them. I’ve put myself on the list to get them if he ever sells. Wish I would have gotten to him sooner. He’s already sold a couple to another member
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 23 2022 at 12:41am
What did he sell the ones he had for? What is a fare $ for a really good example? JB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 23 2022 at 9:48pm
I acquired one of these "church" mags about 5 years ago. Pretty cool stamp and well constructed. I rarely see these for sale.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2022 at 9:56pm
A couple of church mags jus went for 300 on gunbroker. To rich for me. I was all in at 200 and felt stupid. Donnie, wanna trade for 1 of them LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dirty30Carbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2022 at 9:58pm
I bid 300 on them and was out at that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2022 at 11:12pm
Interesting that those two Church mags that just sold on GB were in "jay scott" boxes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2022 at 11:20pm
Yep I noticed that too. They went for $301, you just missed em 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gglithox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 10:27am
I think the stripper clips came in the Jay Scott boxes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jond41403 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 10:44am
Looks to me as long as the boxes are compared to the stripper clip, seems one magazine and one stripper clip came in each box. Maybe just the magazine itself in the box and the clips are extra. I find it interesting that the j Scott calls it a 30 shot clip instead of a 30 round magazine haha. Seller claims in his ad that these were packaged and sold under different names. I have no idea if this is true but that's what his ad mentions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:00am
Originally posted by gglithox gglithox wrote:

I think the stripper clips came in the Jay Scott boxes.

No, 30 round magazines came in those boxes. "Jay Scott Clips" which were actually magazines, had several different markings such as "Made in USA" "Jay Scott" and "M2".  Think they also used some markings that mimicked USGI markings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:34am
The Jay Scott marketed magazines were made by Tony Scherer which is known for making gun grips.
There were 9 different markings that I know of.
Some locations had restrictions on magazine capacity and they cut down and marketed many of these magazines. They were in a smaller box marked Jay Scott

The 30 round box held one magazine and no room for a stripper clip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 1:00pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

There were 9 different markings that I know of.

Dan, has it ever been known for a Church mag to come in a "jay scott" box?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 4:35pm
nope, and the ones on auction are not consistent with the Jay Scott mags.
Someone had the boxes and put the church mags with them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 10:03pm
    It is plausible that Jay Scott acquired M1 Carbine 30rd magazines from many sources / manufactures, which could have been large amounts of Church mags as well when they were initially imported, and distributed in their boxes.       
    It would have been cheaper to acquire them than manufacture them. I remember buying GI 30rd mags from SARCO for 3 dollars each in 1979, Remember back in the day (60's - 80's), hardly anyone wanted these mags.             
    When the initial importation of LARGE amounts of M1 Carbines rolled in, in the very late 80's from South Korea from multiple importers ($120.00 wholesale in Shotgun News), 30rd Mags were stripped nationwide very soon thereafter.     
    Unfortunately, across the USGI spectrum of classic firearms its just getting wild yet predictable..., and anything equipment, gear, parts associated with them is very swiftly disappearing. Cheers JB          
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:23pm
Lets back up a bit.

In CCNL 265 Nov 1998 Larry Horner interviewed Mr. Scherer

In 1963 the NRA was releasing thousands of carbines without magazines. You could buy a USGI 15 round magazine for 10 cents. The 30 round magazines were selling for $3. Scherer saw an opportunity here and had 30 round magazines made. He was selling them 65 cents each if you were buying 1000.

The Tony Scherer magazines had 8 known codes as well as an unmarked. The codes copying USGI magazines were early production and then he was producing unmarked magazines until some import magazines showed up unmarked. This is when he switched to the Made in USA marking
Somewhere in the mix Jay Scott contracted Scherer to make magazines with his name on them.

All of the Scherer magazines have the square cut on the back. If you look at the pictures in this article you will see the church magazines had a angled cut. The Church mags are noticeably heavier than the Scherer magazines

 So I would think The Jay Scott magazines in the box were marked Jay Scott

I think the church mags showed up in the early 90s.

so do I think its plausible that Jay Scott bought surplus mags and sold them in his boxes? I find this unlikely as he had his name put on the ones he was selling rather than just reselling the other magazines.




Edited by New2brass - May 03 2022 at 10:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:50pm
Plausible / Unlikely, Both have potential. During the 50's 60's, early 70's a metric sh@t ton of surplus across Europe and the world was being imported regularly by anyone with capital.... New and used parts, mags etc... as scrap. Lots of unknowns and just the ramblings of seasoned OLD Timers that are left to convey the stories we dream about today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thirtyround Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2022 at 11:57pm
Ive seen pretty much every type of Carbne Mag, never seen a Jay Scott marked 30rd Magazine.... anyone care to post a few images of the markings?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2022 at 12:21am
Here you go thirtyround.



Edited by W5USMC - May 03 2022 at 12:39am
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