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Carbine of Interest Inland 270 |
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4664 |
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More on the "early pinned" slide stop. Ron Dalhamer sent me some pictures to share. This was observed at a gunshow on display. Ron attempted to purchase but it was not for sale. Notice how the hole goes through Here is the other side. Below is the slide for Inland 270, notice how it does not have this hole The slide Ron had attempted to purchase was from Inland number 15 which was one of the 20 toolroom carbines considered the true 'pilot' of the mass produced carbines, meaning they were made by the blueprints on production machinery. Does anyone notice any other similarities?
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Grainy picture but the inside top portion of 270's Slide Cam area looks alot like this 15's cam area :-)
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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I took 270 back out to Bruce Dow this morning and asked him to specifically look at 270's very different Slide cam & Bolt lug combo. He admitted that he had totally missed this odd design when he looked at 270 a month ago when I first took it to him. He was mostly focused on the early type rear leaf sight that was reported by Dan in the article :-) Upon close inspection and much sliding of the bolt's lug in the Slide cam track, Bruce was intrigued by what he saw and I took a video of what he thought about this particular Slide-Bolt Cam interface and I sent the video to both Dan Pinto and Marcus Rust to listen to. Here's my transcribed synopsis of what Bruce says in the video and I apologize for the redundancy of his thoughts but I'm trying to accurately transcribe both what Bruce said before and after I asked him to make the recording :-) 1. This Slide is not a different Slide design, but it a purposely modified/differently milled cam interface of the standard early Slide and Bolt. 2. It looks like this slide and bolt cam combo was built to purposely Test the problem Inland was experiencing with its early Extractors failing, which he said was due to the Higher Velocity Ammo which increased the Gas Pressure which Rotated the Bolt Faster which caused more Centrifugal Force which caused the early type Extractors to fail. 3. He said Inland had to very quickly figure out how to put more Stress on the Extractor in order to determine what was causing the Extractor to fail, and to try to determine where, when, and how it was failing in their current design at that time. He believes Inland engineers created this 270's Slide-Bolt design to specifically force a faster rotation in order to test the cause of the early type 1 Extractor and Plunger failure problem. 4. He believes they used this Slide-Bolt cam combo to prove that it was in fact the new Ammo's increased velocity, increased gas pressure, faster rotating bolt, increased centrifugal force that was causing the Extractor failure issue. From this testing, he believes Inland engineers were able to determine that a new modified Extractor design was needed to eradicate the failures being produced by the increased velocity Ammo. The INTRIGUE of this 270 Inland only continues to grow :-)
Edited by HammerGrunt - Oct 01 2021 at 5:48pm |
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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The more I learn about M1 Carbines testing and early production the more I realize why so many experienced / knowledgeable Carbine enthusiast are really interested in this Inland 270...
I hope more of the Club's Members will see this Post because there may be others who have a few more pearls of wisdom out there to share on this very cool Carbine :-)
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jackp1028
Hard Corps Joined: Jan 01 2016 Location: Cloudcroft, NM Status: Offline Points: 1278 |
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@Dan, aside from the difference in the slide stop, I noticed that there are other significant differences between 270's slide and the slide in the picture provided by Ron Dalhamer. The 270 slide has a perpendicular surface on the right side whereas the one shown in Ron's picture is angular, thus possibly affecting the rate of bolt closure. Also, it appears that the width of the top of the cam cut is greater in Ron's picture compared to the 270 slide. Notice how thin the section is at the top left of the 15 slide (maybe 1/16") versus the 270 slide (~1/8") or about the same as a standard Type 1 slide. This could retard the bolt opening timing compared to the 270 slide. These slides look totally different to me.
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JackP
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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I think Dan was trying to show the inside top of part the cam on the slide has a similar wider milled out area than the standard production slide.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4664 |
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Inland serial numbers 11-99 were Engineering Models. More specifically serial numbers 11-30 were Engineering Specials. These were not true production models that required considerable hand fitting. These were made to prove the blueprints as well as helping shake down the machining setup and jigs. If you take a good look at any slide you will see the bolt cam area is quite complex as the cut is done while rotating the slide to give it a helix curve for the bolt. The 2 slides in question are very different manufacturing wise but clearly have similarities. I bring up the Inland 15 slide because there is a possible perpetuated myth of early slides having the stop retaining pin. This possible perpetuated myth falls in the hands of ordnance/ Raritan Arsenal or whomever was laying out the manuals as they show slides like the one on Inland 15 as the "old style" in the FM The slide on 270 is not what we see in production. It may have been
first production or first production modified based on the ordnance
documents on the slide testing. The angles of the pictures can skew what we are seeing and make things seem as they are not. The cam area picture of #15 was taken with the camera slanted and the box of the cam was closer to the camera than the cam. The slide is only a few degrees of rotation off the table. The picture provided by Hammer was taken more square to the slide but is rotated about 80 degrees more than the #15 slide. here is a picture of the cam area on #15 that was taken more parallel. The cam area on the left looks a little wider than the picture in my previous post, It may be thinner than #270 |
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Was honored to have Dan Pinto visit my great State of Florida and while here today he had the opportunity to manhandle Inland 270 in person. I have a feeling we may be seeing some more information from him on this super interesting early M1 Carbine :-)
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Dan - Ive been hoping that you could find a time to post some information about the mold castings you did on this very early Inland with its mix of early prototype and early standard production parts. I was curious about the possible dimensional differences you would find comparing it to other early Inlands.
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New2brass
Moderator Group Dan Pinto, Photo Editor Joined: Nov 29 2015 Location: CT Status: Offline Points: 4664 |
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Recently someone shared a Inland presentation with the club, this was a known renumber from an early X serial number carbine. This carbine has the longer 300 yard flip sight. Checking records on another presentation I found the same tall flip sight. Long time member Asa Overall also sent me pictures of a 4 digit that has that flip sight as well. It has a 6-42 barrel. It would seem more than a few made it into production. Found some ordnance documents to dig through on ammo, maybe there will be some info in there
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Thank you Dan for posting these additional earlier type of M1 Carbine Rear Sights. We know Inland changed these out very early on in their production run which makes these older type rear sights possibly some of the most uncommon Inland made parts to make it onto Inlands first batch of Production rifles.
It still amazes me that we are finding these type of not previously seen / known M1 Carbine discoveries after so many years of research and collecting. I'm also really surprised to see that this Carbine of Interest has received over 7500 views since you posted about it
Let me know when your coming back to Florida for another visit! |
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Here's some additional pics of Inland 270, and something on the very early (modified?) Op Slide handle that I hadn't noticed previously. Happy New Year to All Carbine Enthusiast!
Inland 270's Op Slide has an extended machining flat compared to all of my other Type 1 or 2 Slides. Inland 3446 Op Slide On my early 1943 Winchester My Early Rock Ola |
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Inland 270 has much rougher / more extensive machining marks on the receiver’s top right side compared to all my other Carbines.
Edited by W5USMC - Dec 31 2022 at 10:00pm |
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Semper Fidelis!
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Some views not previously shown.
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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I’m still amazed whenever I look at the parts and pieces on this Carbine #270 that were produced early in 1942 by a Company that had previously been producing Car steering wheels, as compared to the parts and pieces 6 Million Serial # later that were produced by so many other American manufacturers in 1945.
To me, This Carbine #270 represents the humbling thought of where our Nation was so early in the War and how our Nations citizens became so committed to pulling together as a people with the collective Focus of just surviving and winning the War.
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W5USMC
Moderator Group Joined: Apr 29 2017 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 2966 |
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Unfortunately, I don't think we will ever see that type of commitment again. Hopefully I am wrong!
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Wayne
USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Sadly to True Marine...
Makes me even more in Awe of that generation of great Americans who fought on the War Front as well as those on the Home Front who supported those who fought during World War II, and the M1 carbine in my historical opinion was foundational to their victory on both Fronts!
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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I was going back over Dan's amazing article on this super early Production Inland that has some parts that may even be Pre full production test type parts and I realized that I hadn't ever shown any pictures of the LW U Underwood Buttstock that this very early Carbine ended up in.
This stock has no inspectors Flaming Bomb, Crossed Cannon Wheel, or P markings so its possible that this was a replacement stock that was used in the Inland Factory when this Production type carbine was being used for testing.
The Handguard has no stamps or markings on it. Edited by HammerGrunt - Jun 29 2023 at 9:09pm |
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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I also found another interesting "difference" with Inland 270. The front end of 270's Mag Well is shaped differently from all my other Carbines. You can see that it has a non-liner / non straight edge and it also has different bevels on the inner shoulders as compared to all of my other Magazine wells, and its Stock is cut out with the "curve" to accommodate the Magazine wall. Of note, Magazines fit fine in 270's odd shaped Mag well.
Here's pics of Inland 270 and Inland 3446 to show what I'm referring to and I'm curious if anyone else has a Mag Well shaped oddly like 270's, or was this another example of it being a pre full production "test" parts gun and maybe why it has the "P" stamped on its Mag Well where others have an Ordinance Bomb stamp? Inland 270 Inland 3446 |
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HammerGrunt
On Point Joined: Aug 05 2021 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 436 |
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Close Ups of the differences on the front wall of the Trigger Housing.
270 3446 Edited by HammerGrunt - Jun 30 2023 at 8:46pm |
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