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Birch IBM stock, yea or nay

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PingCMP View Drop Down
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    Posted: Mar 01 2022 at 6:57pm
I'm almost ready to submit a data sheet for my 3.855xxx IBM (Bavarian/Austrian) and have just one thing I want to run by you all. The stock (which is marked with the last 4 digits of the S/N) is very light colored when compared to all my other carbines and I'm wondering if it could be birch? It's marked JLB in the slingwell, and from what information I have, if birch it should be marked SCB (Sprague & Carleton, Kane, New Hampshire)
However, the stock compares closely in color to member Da1Chief's IBM, "Blondie", which is an SCB & might be birch, so I'm curious enough to because if it is, I want to include that info on the data sheet.

Here's a couple pix, one with it alongside a walnut stock that apparently hasn't been touched by RLO or anything else for several decades for color comparison. I haven't put anything on the IBM stock, which I bought about 13 or so years ago, I believe it came from the CMP.
Thanks in advice for any input you can give.








Charlie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2022 at 7:41pm
Jamestown used birch and cherry as well. The straight grain looks more like cherry to me.

Keep in mind that many wood species have sap wood and heart wood that have noticeable color differences.

Somewhere on these forums is a picture of a stock that one half it sap and the other heart
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2022 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Jamestown used birch and cherry as well. The straight grain looks more like cherry to me.

Keep in mind that many wood species have sap wood and heart wood that have noticeable color differences.

Somewhere on these forums is a picture of a stock that one half it sap and the other heart

I had thought I'd seen cherry mentioned somewhere in a book, but I'm no expert on wood types. It just looks so much different that any of my other carbine stocks and knowing IBM used wood other than walnut I figured I'd ask.  I'll wait a bit before I send in the data sheet, maybe someone else here has something to add.

Thanks!

Charlie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 01 2022 at 10:17pm
You may be able to take a page out of the pro book. 
I'm thinking it may be worth looking under the buttplate
When cleanly machined or cut, the endgrain of those two species shows major difference in how the pores are distributed in the growth ring.
A 10 to 15x magnifier will help.

Click on this professor's examples of birch and cherry.

or this one
from which I will post these images, but there's more description on the webpage


Takeaways for Birches:
Growth rings don't stand out.  The big pores are solitary and spread evenly through the growth ring.


Things to look for on the Cherries.  Growth rings should be easier to see. Pores are smaller and bunched up.  Strong 'rays'.

Getting a clean image like that requires a very clean cut.  Pros will dampen the wood and use a sharp xacto or similar.  But that may not be neccessary to see when we know its one of these two.

Lets add the possibility of Black Walnut.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 02 2022 at 11:37am
Thanks for the useful pix Matt, I'll file for later use. I just took these pix of my IBM's butt, one with flash,
one without.  What do you think?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 02 2022 at 1:12pm
I'm sorry, I can't tell from those photos. 
It's a pretty coarse cut so would need to find or make a clean spot for a magnified look.
We can see that stain drip but I think from what I've read stain was often sprayed.  Then dunked in the linseed oil afterwood.

Maybe Painter can guess since he's seen a lot of stocks and is familiar with lumber.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 08 2022 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

I'm sorry, I can't tell from those photos. 
It's a pretty coarse cut so would need to find or make a clean spot for a magnified look.
We can see that stain drip but I think from what I've read stain was often sprayed.  Then dunked in the linseed oil afterwood.

Maybe Painter can guess since he's seen a lot of stocks and is familiar with lumber.


I'll be hard pressed to sand anywhere to get a positive ID on that stock, hopefully Painter will come across this thread and weigh in. I just noticed an older post where much of this was discussed relative to IBM and he was in the thick of iT. Thanks very much for your input!

Regards
Charlie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2022 at 9:54am
Charlie,
Just to be clear, both for you and anyone else reading this - Sanding won't produce a clean surface cut for viewing the cell structure.   It has to be cut with a razor sharp edge.  Sometimes a saw will get it pretty close, a handplane or chisel often better.  But for examination purposes its usually an Xacto or similar blade. 

- Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2022 at 12:45pm
Birch.

Often times you'll see the White Ring around the pistol grip.
This is from getting deep enough in to the blank to expose the lighter (Almost White) Sapwood found in White Birch.

Here is a top and side view of a SC B Birch stock that shows the White Ring:






HTH,
Charlie-P777
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PingCMP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2022 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by painter777 painter777 wrote:

Birch.

Often times you'll see the White Ring around the pistol grip.
This is from getting deep enough in to the blank to expose the lighter (Almost White) Sapwood found in White Birch.

HTH,
Charlie-P777



Wow, it took me a minute but I see what you mean now! I almost was going to take & post a pic of the bottom of the pistol grip before I caught on. My stock looks just like yours except it's a JLB.
Thanks, I'll include that info on the data sheet I'll soon submit here Thumbs Up

Regards,    
            Charlie 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Da1Chief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 09 2022 at 7:28pm

PingCMP, Thanks for mentioning both me and “Blondie” in your original post.

I picked up a second IBM Carbine this past weekend at the Hampton, VA gun show.  Like Blondie it is also an SC B Stock with matching SC B Hand Guard.  Didn’t plan it that way, that’s just how it turned out.  I couldn’t pass up the price at under $1600.  One of the things that took down the price is it was Really Dark and Dirty, to the point that my hands would feel like they were sticking to the stock.

I was forced to completely strip Blondie because someone had put a shiny varnish on it and stripping was my only option.  New2brass told me “Raw Linseed Oil to clean, Raw Linseed Oil to protect”.  So, for the next 3 hours I went at it with the RLO and a Green Scotch Brite pad.  I was able to clean it and bring out the Birch while still keeping the “Patina”, which I lost on Blondie.

I am going to name this one “Dagwood” because Blondie needed a Husband. (Comic Strip Pun Intended).

So here is a picture of the Dagwood's Stock after cleaning. Hopefully it may help the discussion.

To this old country boy, “My Humble Opinion” is that it looks like Honest Birch to me.

Very respectfully,

Da1Chief


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 2:30pm
Thank you for this info on the white ring. I have an IBM with a high wall, oval cut stock marked "S&C".
i thought it was birch, but not sure.
with this information I can see the white ring around the stock behind the pistol grip.
clearly. So, now I know.
Very helpful! thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 2:46pm
By the way, I've seen discussions about IBM stocks marked only "S&C" before and never got a consensus as to being an authentic stock marking?

My carbine is 3728701, so somewhat early.
As far as I can tell, the stock is legit original. has correct IBM type ordinance stamp on right side.
I'm not convinced the rear flip sight is original, but the rest of the carbine appears to be.
I'm sure it is birch now.

But the stock marking? Any updated news on whether or not, Sprague & Carlton had a marking on stocks before the "B" was added?

Thank you,


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 4:19pm
If you take off the buttplate. do you see any numbers stamped into the wood?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 5:48pm
Nope,

No numbers, nothing stamped into the wood under the buttplate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 10:02pm
Can you post a picture of the crossed cannon cartouche?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 11:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 11:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 17 2022 at 11:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 18 2022 at 9:03am
This first link has info about the different markings that Sprague and Carlton used. do read the entire thread. Since that post Sprague and Carlton contracts were found, more below


the second link talks about the markings under the buttplate


Basically the markings were distinctly different between those sent to Underwood and IBM, but they had the markings under the buttplate. Those markings are believed to be Julian dates or possibly lot numbers for accounting.
In 1945, 10 months after Underwood and IBM contracts were cancelled, Sprague & Carlton received a contract directly to the government for replacement stocks. We have not seen any of these stocks with the numbers on the butt.

Here is the interesting thing, by late 1943 the stocks were changed to low wood and yours is a highwood.
The marking is not consistent with the SC-B stocks we see. Did S&C change the markings when they were making stocks for Underwood?

this opens up more questions,
Does the carbine appear correct and matching condition?
what serial range is the carbine?
Is there any flaws or patches on the stock which may have had it sidelined and used later?



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