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Austrian CMP carbine question

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    Posted: Aug 14 2019 at 6:06pm
Howdy.  FNG here, this question is about my second M1 carbine purchased just recently.  First is a rebuilt Winchester from Blue Sky Imports (not stamp-struck too hard) that I've had since the late '80s.  

I got a Saginaw S G at a recent Cody gun show.  The receiver is marked Bavarian Forestry Police - O + M.  The receiver has been drilled and tapped (3 holes) below the wood line.  Rear sight was a commercial Kensight, finger loose in the dovetail.  

The gun has been partially rebuilt (T4 front band and rotary safety), re-barreled, and refinished in black oxide with little wear since refinish.  Front sight (loose fore-and-aft) is Saginaw SG, as is the buttplate on the birch SA M2-cut potbelly replacement stock.  Handguard is 4-rivet IO.  

Thanks to this website, I can say I'm pretty certain that the barrel is from Erma Werke due to a particular way of gas cylinder swaging and the Underwood-style latheing toolmarks.  Barrel is slick of markings, which is leading me to believe that replacement was done for the Austrians and not for the Germans.  

Besides no barrel markings, there are no US importer markings.  There are no trigger housing markings indicating issue to Austrian rural police.  

What I'm wondering about is the replacement stock.  Springfield Armory M2, birch, and as-bought it had been stripped.  Sanded a bit maybe but not much.  Real blonde, with an Italian "star FAT 82".  This stock has not been inletted to accept the scope mount that the receiver had been drilled for.  (Assuming again, from a mount pic on the Bavarian section of this site.)

Since the gun is a shooter (gauges 0 at muzzle) and a parts gun, I really do not care much that its stock got stripped.  All the carbine wood looked lighter 75 years ago than it does today.  With the black refinish, contrast is nice to the non-collector eye.  

Was wondering, could that FAT stock have been put on the gun prior to import, or is it more likely that it got put on the rifle after sale by CMP (along with the Kensight rear sight?)

And with the front sight being loose fore-and-aft:  could that have been abided for use and issue? (No.) Or maybe some guns just got re-barreled and sent out the Austrian door as being sold already and who will care a few thousand miles away at the Big PX?  (Sight's problem, was its key being too small.)

Feel free to hammer hard on my assumptions and maybe bad conclusions.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 14 2019 at 6:48pm
Welcome to the forum.  The rear sight sounds like it has been "updated" by an owner.  Also, what makes you say it came from the CMP?  As for the stock one quick check is to see if there is a corresponding FAT 82 stamp on the barrel in front of the receiver.  They are small and faint.  If so then the receiver and stock most  likely came together.  It'll be interesting to see what others have to say.  Also, some pics would be good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 14 2019 at 7:18pm
If the gun came from the CMP it is possible it was assembled from the spare parts they received along with the Austrian/Bavarian returns that were built up by the CMP. These were some of the last carbines they offered up and were a mix of parts.

I do not think all Italian returns had the FAT on the barrel. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 14 2019 at 7:23pm
Sounds to me like a previous owner may have taken parts they needed for another carbine and just randomly replaced the parts they took with whatever parts they had on hand. How about some pictures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 14 2019 at 7:33pm
Hi and welcome to the forum from New Mexico!

It sounds like your SG was a CMP return from Austria that has since been modified by a later owner to add the scope mount. Maybe it was the original stock that was inletted for the scope mount but they (or a next owner) later decided to go with a "shooter" SA stock and commercial rear sight to go along with the "new" barrel. What is the date of the CMP cert? Did the Cody seller have anything to say about this carbines history?

There's really no telling how it became the way it is, but I suspect most of the mods happened after the carbine was sold by CMP.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quietus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 14 2019 at 7:57pm
Yeah, the Kensight struck me as a POS that could not be abided, even if it was not finger-loose in the dovetail.  Which it was.  I replaced it with a T3, I.R. CO. stamped on its off side wing.  From Northridge.  

I looked hard for a FAT stamp on the barrel just now, could not see anything in favorable light.  

Why do I think it's a CMP gun?  I'm assuming that's so, because otherwise it would have had import stamps on barrel and receiver if imported commercially post-68. 

Forgot a couple things on OP:  no markings on the front of receiver on left side below wood line.  And the flat of the stock's pistol grip area (bottom) has a three-digit stamped number not related to the gun.  As bought, the rear sight dovetail has four fairly light staking areas, two front and two rear.  They appear to have been done with a center punch, and not near as severe as what was staked on my Blue Sky for its stamped adjustable rear sight.  These staking marks were done prior to refinish.  The Kensight?  I do think it was somebody's afterthought to do a visual thing for a sale, ala the scope mount thing took away the rear sight, so let's put on a commercial sight for ten bucks less and see if it flies (or flies out of the dovetail!)

I have no quibbles with what I bought or with the seller.  After perusing this site some, I did call up the Cody Winchester collector show seller.  From the get-go, he had not tried to misrepresent anything about the gun, and it came cheap enough.  I did call him up later wondering about its history as he may have known it- the Austrian re-barreling and Italian stock.  He said it came from an estate and he knew nothing.  I am fine with that.  

Thanks for your input.  You and others feel free to hammer on my assumptions.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 14 2019 at 9:27pm
I believe the barrel may have been made by ERMA Firearms Mfg. Co, Mo. and not from ERMA-Werke, Germany. My understanding is that ERMA-Werke only made .22's.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 15 2019 at 6:02am
At the tail end of the CMP carbine program they sold off "junk" barreled receivers (this was the actual description from CMP). Most were actually very good and buildable, a superb deal. Anyway, some members reported Bavarian BRs in the mix, some receivers were drilled and tapped. Considering the configuration of your rifle it may have been built with one of these BRs. I don't believe that CMP sold complete rifles with drilled and tapped receivers, even as rack grade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 15 2019 at 12:27pm
Hey guys

Couple things for reference.

Erma-Werke in Germany made .30 carbine barrels, stamped adjustable rear sights, and a number of parts for the carbines used by West Germany. Some of them, the barrel included, are on this web page: http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/parts.html. I have a Standard Products carbine with an Erma Werke barrel and West German proof mark from their proof house in Ulm. Also have a spare Erma Werke barrel. Both were part of my display. The barrels made by Erma Werke in Germany have no markings but were to GI spec using a swaged gas piston housing.

Erma Werke did not make any .30 caliber carbines. Just parts. The .22 LR carbine training rifle they made sold commercially in the USA was the Model EM-1 starting in the mid 60's.

Barrels made by Erma's Mfg in Steelville, MO were made using the rear half of a demilled GI carbine receiver into which was inserted a 1903 barrel.

CMP received two shipments the Austrians returned to the U.S. Army. The first was in December 2008 and included about 7000 carbines. M2's and M1A1's included. Many of the M1 carbines had Bavaria markings with some of them having been drilled and tapped for a scope mount. With this first shipment CMP did sell the carbines that had been drilled and tapped for a scope mount. I'd heard they weren't going too but I've had a number of people who bought them from CMP contact me.

The second shipment CMP received that were returns from Austria I think was 2013/2014 but I may be off a year, The carbines in the 2nd batch included a bunch that had been stripped of various parts for use as spares and replacement parts by the Austrians. Some were barreled receivers, some has more parts. Some were completely intact and in excellent condition. I bought one from this second batch on the CMP Auction. An NPM used by the Austrian Bundesheer. Only way to tell was the Bundesheer hang tag. No Austrian markings. Still have it.

A small note about the "junk" carbines comment. Shortly after Orest Michaels left CMP his replacement made a statement to a long time Carbine Club member at a CMP match that he considered all carbines "junk" and had sold off all the remaining left over carbine parts. Not long after the 2nd batch arrived from Austria.

As many of you are well aware there are a number of M1 Rifle collectors et al that consider the carbines "junk". My reply is usually, hey, great, then you won't mind getting rid of that junk at prices far below those of an M1 rifle. That means more "junk" I can afford.

The same holds true for the "junk" the police in West Germany and Austria used during and after the American Occupation. One reason I started researching them was to try to get collectors to stop stripping them of their history.

Everyone has their own dislikes and likes, interests and no interest. One man's junk is another man's .... here's one to think about. What makes collectables collectables is their history. What happens to value when a carbine or M1 has documentation of its history?

If anyone has a serial number they would like checked against the Austrian returns pm me. I just might be able to be of help.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 15 2019 at 12:40pm
A P.S.

It's possible Erma Werke sold carbine barrels to the Austrians. A number of the CMP returns had Erma WErke barrels.

That "refinished" M2 FAT stock ..... CMP was using a grease removal process on returns. Not sure when they started by pretty sure it included teh ones from Italy and later. It dried out the stock something fierce. But a better option than the time it took to remove grease from hundreds and even thousands of carbines/M1's. I recall something about the use of Aircraft oil on the stocks that had been degreased. Saw a bunch in various stages of that process. The end result looked like what it was. Stripped and poorly refinished.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quietus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 15 2019 at 1:08pm
sleepnessnashadow:  thanks for that.  I like "junk" also.  The fact that my new gun has a stamped in English history of being issued to a recovering Germany as it faced off Ivan and then ended up next door, means more to me than the Blue Sky Import stamp on my other one.  But both shoot well.  

The neighborhood I live in is still real close to "frontier" status according to the census bureaucrats.  Not many people here.  A junker carbine is a handy and useful part of daily life.  It beats the AR for weight and handiness.  With a proven 5-round magazine, it looks like a Ruger 10/22 until it doesn't.  

FWIW, the S/N on this Saginaw S.G. is 35236xx.  It may have been built about March of 1944.

ETA:  thanks for your tidbit of info on the FAT stock in your P.S.   I don't know who may have stripped it.  Blonde birch looks good enough to me.  Been wiping it with Ballistol, nice fumes.   Sunlight will darken it some.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kar6666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 28 2019 at 8:58am
I ordered one of those barreled receivers from the CMP. If I remember right they were supposed to have bad barrels that would need to be replaced. I ordered as soon as they were advertised ask for a WRA and got a type 2 late receiver with the correct barrel w/o band or sight. As good as it looked I just didn't think there could be anything wrong with the barrel. So I just assembled it and it headspaced good and shot good too. I am sure it had original finish with very little wear of the finish. It also filled a hole in my WRA collection that was one WRA receiver I didn't have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 28 2019 at 9:31am
Well, deer hunting this morning and there is NOTHING moving this AM, not even a squirrel, so why not take a trip down memory lane. Those "junk" CMP BRs were a steal, $125 if I recall. I ordered (1) and received a beautiful QHMC with its original Rock-ola barrel. Like kar6666's it headspaced fine when I built it up. Shoots great. At the time, reports from the CMP south store were that guys were carrying them out by the arm full. To be fair I saw a few dogs reported with chipped out receiver dovetails, pitting, etc. but still a decent deal. About the same time, they were selling "boltless" carbines, luck of draw on manufacturer, for something like $300 or $350. Foolishly, I didn't order one because I didn't have a spare bolt on hand. I saw some nice ones posted from that sale as well.
Happy Thanksgiving all!
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