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Armscor Ammo in my ‘43 Inland

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Mr_Flintstone View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr_Flintstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Armscor Ammo in my ‘43 Inland
    Posted: May 21 2020 at 7:34pm
I don’t know if anyone else has encountered this, but I recently bought a 1943 Inland M1 Carbine from Royal Tiger Imports, and I have a slight issue.  The Stock was well worn, but the action and barrel on this carbine are on the “almost new” side.  The only complaint that I have is that I can’t shoot Armscor ammunition.  The Armscor bullets are not a smooth taper like standard .30 carbine bullets, but have a longer bearing surface, and a more blunt nose.

The round on the left is a WWII Winchester round, the middle bullet is a 110 gr Hornady, and the right is the Armscor.  Factory Armscor ammo won’t chamber in this gun because the shoulder on the bullet hits the lands in the barrel.  When handloading Armscor bullets, they can be made to work by seating to the bare minimum overall length of 1.625”, but it’s still touching the lands.  I don’t have this issue with any other “military profile” FMJ bullets or loaded ammo, or when handloading soft points or half jackets.

Has anyone else ever encountered this type of problem?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Horrible_Aim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 7:47pm
Armscor fed and shot fine from both of my RTIs. Which grade did you buy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr_Flintstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 8:24pm
I got the $999 Very Good to Excellent.  There appears to be little to no wear in the barrel.  It could be a replacement, but the 4-43 barrel date stamp matches the approximate date of manufacture for a 388,xxx serial number Inland.  It holds about 1” at 50 yards, but that’s about as accurate as I can shoot.

I can seat all the standard profile bullets out to 1.680” without touching the lands, but the Armscor bullets hit at about 1.627”.  I assume, although I haven’t really checked, that the gun has a short or tight throat.  Probably tight since other bullets clear the lands just fine seated all the way out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 8:31pm
Check the headspace, if good stay away from Armscor ammo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Donnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 9:22pm
Armscor ammo functions and shoots ok in my Inland. But, if it doesnt work for you, there are plenty of other good manufacturers out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr_Flintstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2020 at 10:04pm
I don’t think it’s a headspace issue.  If it were, wouldn’t all types of bullets cause a problem?

I used a piece of once fired brass, lightly taper crimped an Armscor bullet colored with a sharpie in the case so that it would move when forced, and chambered it.  When I ejected the round, it measured 1.627”, and I could see where the rifling had touched the bullet.  When I did the same with a Hornady bullet, the round measured 1.689”, and I could see a faint mark where it touched the rifling.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 6:23am
I hate it when I have a gun that is ammo-picky for whatever reason. Never have had a problem with Armscor in any carbine. There just has to be something a little different with the chamber in that carbine, or the projectile itself. I suppose one could have the chamber checked, or just shop for and shoot ammo with the mil-spec profile. I wonder if that particular lot of Armscor has an issue? I plan to go get some out of my stash and compare with some other brands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 7:39am
Hummm.

Armscor on the left, Fiocchi on the right. Fiocchi should work for you as well.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr_Flintstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 8:50am
Well,I can always shoot these in my Auto Ordnance.  It’ll digest anything.  I just wish I could use them in the Inland as well.  Armscor ammo is affordable and available.  Other brands, not so much right now.  And apparently everybody that reloads is loading .30 Carbine right now.  I’ve resorted to loading 86 gr .30 Mauser soft point bullets in .30 Carbine cases because of the shortage.  Oddly enough, they chamber and shoot just fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 9:08am
I have loaded a gaggle and shot a bunch of 86-grain SP Mauser over 16-grains of H110. My chrono clocks it at 2200+-. Darn good load.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 9:30am
Looking at the shape of the round snuggest to me the round doesn't like the feed ramp or visa versa.
I had a feeding problem with whatever I used. I found polishing the ramp worked a charm. You do  not have to grind it, just polish it. I used a Dremal with a lames wool tip and some jewelers rouges.
  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr_Flintstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 10:03am
I thought about that, but it’s not my issue.  When I measured the cartridge length that would fit, I would hand feed into the chamber; bypassing the feed ramp altogether.  It probably would increase feed reliability with soft points and half jackets though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Donnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 10:18am
When i get any kind of FTFeed issue in any autoloader, I like to rule out the magazine being a factor. While your narrative would seem to not indicate a magazine problem, have you tried using different magazines?  Ermm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr_Flintstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 10:36am
Yes.  I went through the whole magazine thing with my Auto-Ordnance.  I now have a wide variety of magazines including GI and new Korean made magazines that tend to work better than most new manufacture mags.  That’s one of the first things I check now.  

These rounds had no problem clearing the magazine, with the feed ramp, or entering the chamber.  They simply wouldn’t seat all the way in the chamber, and the bolt wouldn’t close without giving the charging handle a good whack.  When I did get them to finally chamber, I couldn’t eject the unfired round easily because it was stuck in the lands of the throat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Mr_Flintstone Mr_Flintstone wrote:

I don’t think it’s a headspace issue.  If it were, wouldn’t all types of bullets cause a problem? 

Yes, you are probably correct, but it never hurts to check it. How about the case length on the armscor? In the picture that floydthecat posted it looks like the actual case on the armscor is longer than the Fiocchi.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Donnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 11:18am
I think you should just forget using anymore Armscor ammo and explore a variety of other manufacturers. Life is too short to try to figure out issues with Armscor ammo, assuming this problem doesn't reappear with other ammo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr_Flintstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 12:09pm
I know I should just forget about the Armscor, but it’s like a bug in my brain.  I have to know why.  Doing some checking I got the following:

Winchester Military COL=1.670”, case length=1.280”
Armscor Commercial COL=1.640”, case length=1.280”, bullet height=.645”
Remington commercial COL=1.660”, case length=1.280”
Aguila commercial COL=1.655”, case length=1.280”
Hornady M1 Carbine 110 gr bullet height =.670”
My hand loads with Hornady COL=1.680”, case length=1.280-1.285”

No problems with anything but the Armscor.  It has to be the bullet profile.  Perhaps this gun was carried during WWII, but used very little; having a short/tight throat.  At any rate, I think the Armscor bullet profile makes it incompatible with this gun.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote blackfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2020 at 2:38pm
FWIW I've never had any issues with Armscor's gold bullets either. The only think I dislike about Armscor is the packaging. I mean, come on man!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr_Flintstone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 24 2020 at 1:12pm
Update:  I don’t have Quickload or anything, but after doing some figuring using the formulas in Lee#1 about pressure, I’ve determined to seat my component Armscor bullets at 1.620” overall length.  That’s the same seating depth as the Hornady bullets seated at 1.645”.  It should cause about a 5-6% increase in pressure in the shortened cartridges.  I should be good on pressure with a full load of H110, but IMR 4227 can only be loaded to about half way between min and max because of case volume and the possibility of over pressure.  

I ran some test loads with the Armscor Bullets seated at 1.620” with 13.3 gr IMR 4227, and they all fed, chambered, and fired perfectly.  I’ll still have to use my factory Armscor ammo in the Auto-Ordnance though.
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