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anyone seen a M1 caarbine bolt get shatttered

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JR's GunWorx View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JR's GunWorx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: anyone seen a M1 caarbine bolt get shatttered
    Posted: Nov 04 2017 at 8:44am
Hopefully the picture uploads. Have a customer who brought in his M1 carbine with a shattered bolt. Blamed steel cased ammo. Trying to verify if such could be the case as I have my doubts.

Anyone else see a bolt get shattered by steel case ammo?

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John
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John
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Charles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 04 2017 at 9:15am
I'v been shooting steel casing ammo for years without any problems. Could they have been improperly hand loaded? A dirty left lug has been known to cause a bolt to brake as well. Inspect the area of the action were the left lug would be for burs. Also heavy scraping marks on the left lug. Hope this has been helpful.
Your photos failed to show up.
Charles
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JR's GunWorx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 04 2017 at 10:01am
that's what I suspect also. Not the current owner, yet perhaps some past owner. Yes, found some burrs and rough stops on lug area of the receiver on both sides. Smooth those out. When I tested the fit of a replacement bolt, it operates smoothly and seems to lock up well. Now, if would be great if I can get the extractor to get in place while holding the ejector in. Extractor spring is strong! As it should be.
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John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 04 2017 at 10:46am
Originally posted by JR's GunWorx JR's GunWorx wrote:

Now, if would be great if I can get the extractor to get in place while holding the ejector in. Extractor spring is strong! As it should be.
 
Are you using a bolt tool?  Here is an article on doing it without a bolt tool, however it is highly recommended that a bolt tool be used for ones sanity.
 
 
As linked at bottom of that article is the bolt page
 
at bottom is instructions using bolt tool.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JR's GunWorx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 04 2017 at 11:04am
I noticed that sanity issue without the bolt tool. And as expected, after I ordered a bolt tool, it came together as it should have in the first place. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sleeplessnashadow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 07 2017 at 6:07pm
I'm a little late on this one.

It's not possible to determine what may have caused the bolt to shatter without a photo or a detailed description of what broke, where and other details.

Steel case .30 carbine ammo isn't going to break a GI bolt. Not even in the long run. You'd have more success trying to beat someone to death with a rubber chicken. It can break the GI extractor over time.

"Shatter" implies the bolt broke like glass. The most common break is the right bolt lug breaks off with the crack starting in the opening for the extractor and extending to the point the rear of the right lug connects to the body.

One thing that can cause the right lug to snap off is anything that impedes the movement of the left lug as it moves back and forth in the receiver. This puts added pressure on the right bolt lug from the slide as it moves back and forth. Sometimes something as simple as a burr in the path of the left bolt lug is enough to do it over time. Easily remedied by gently filing or polishing the burr til it's gone.

Here's an example of the right lug having snapped off due to burrs in the path of the left bolt lug.



Half way down the web page on bolts there's an explanation with an additional pic to illustrate why it broke.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/bolts.html

I still have the bolt. Next time I do pics I'll take a few more showing the break from different angles.

Same bolt...



Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote manteo97 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 07 2017 at 8:00pm
Have seen a broken bolt like the one in sleeplessnashaodow's post. A customer brought his carbine into me (Dad's bring back Inland), and had broken the original bolt AND a commercial replacement bolt. Barrel had been replaced by a "qualified gunsmith". Receiver was deformed in left bolt lug area too, beyond repair

I checked headspace with the broken bolt and it swallowed the NOGO. Mic'd out the depth of chamber and it was .050 deeper than the NOGO dimension. So, it would seem if the chamber has been reamed way to deep, too much play in the bolt during firing, the spent cartridge recoils back a bit before it slaps against the bolt face (rather than being held firmly in place) and bingo! There goes the right lug.

So, if you can, check the headspace with gauges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bonnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 07 2017 at 9:45pm
Some times things just break?
Many years ago during a CMP club match a new from rebuild CMP "white bag" club carbine had the right lug break on a flat bolt during a match. Couldn't determine a reason why. It was fitted with a new round bolt and works just fine to this day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbinecanuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 04 2017 at 7:38pm
Just had this 'N14' marked bolt come apart on me this past weekend.

I haven't been playing with carbines for a very long time.  I get the impression it is not a very common occurrence.  Just some bad luck I guess.

The bolt was hot blued post war at some point.  Other than that, did not notice any signs of anything unusual about it.

The carbine was quite new to me, and I only had a chance to put about a dozen Winchester FMJ through it prior to it failing.   




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2017 at 7:43am
I'm sure there are no records anyone is keeping on broken bolts, but I had an N14 crack myself and it seems that the N14 shows up often in discussions concerning cracked bolts. I just steer-clear of any NPM flat bolt. Reading a lot about N14 cracks and having one crack myself, was enough to convince me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sling00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2017 at 9:10am
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

I'm sure there are no records anyone is keeping on broken bolts, but I had an N14 crack myself and it seems that the N14 shows up often in discussions concerning cracked bolts. I just steer-clear of any NPM flat bolt. Reading a lot about N14 cracks and having one crack myself, was enough to convince me.
Sounds like good advise.  It would be interesting to have one inspected to determine the failure mechanism.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2017 at 11:23am
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

I'm sure there are no records anyone is keeping on broken bolts, but I had an N14 crack myself and it seems that the N14 shows up often in discussions concerning cracked bolts. I just steer-clear of any NPM flat bolt. Reading a lot about N14 cracks and having one crack myself, was enough to convince me.

Yep, that is pretty convincing to me too. I think from now on when I shoot my Postal Meter, I will use a spare bolt instead of the N 14.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manteo97 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 05 2017 at 5:51pm
carbinecanuck is sending this broken bolt to me, along with the carbine. I'll be able to do a bit of a metallurgical examination on it. I'll post the results.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 6:31pm
Hmm, I have a N 14 bolt with a crack.
This is the third mentioned here.
coincidence or are we on to something
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by carbinecanuck carbinecanuck wrote:

Just had this 'N14' marked bolt come apart on me this past weekend.
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">I haven't been playing with carbines for a very long time.  I get the impression it is not a very common occurrence.  Just some bad luck I guess.</span>

<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">The bolt was hot blued post war at some point.  Other than that, did not notice any signs of anything unusual about it.</span>
<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">
</span>
<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">The carbine was quite new to me, and I only had a chance to put about a dozen Winchester FMJ through it prior to it failing.   </span>
<span style="line-height: 16.8px;">


fyi your bolt has its original finish - when manufactured they were dulite finished.
Over the years I have seen more than a few posts where other carbine owners experienced cracked N14 bolts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbinecanuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 09 2017 at 11:19pm
I am familiar with the Du-Lite finish.

But this one was hot blued.  Along with the rest of the barreled action.  I am almost certain of that. 

 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbinecanuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 10 2017 at 10:05pm
Just took possession of an S.G. mixed parts carbine this weekend.  The seller had notified me prior to the sale that the bolt it was coming with, was unusable.

Take one guess as to what marking was on the left lug .....








It seems as this is turning out to be something a bit more than pure coincidence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 11 2017 at 8:51am
I hadn't paid much attention to the problem, until I cracked one. It seems as if every where I went I was reading comments concerning N14 failures. The issue has been mentioned on just about every forum I visit. As far as I'm concerned...N14 bolts are only for looking at and not for shooting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 11 2017 at 1:20pm
I have not done the math to say that there is an issue with these bolts. As a matter of fact there is not enough reports of broken bolts to suggest one is more prone to break than another.
A little birdie tells me that you can have one of these bolts.
 
 
what is interesting is this one is for the ubber rare 1942 NPM Clown
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote manteo97 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 11 2017 at 10:37pm
A quick review of past CCNL's indicates N14 marked flat bolts were used from Dec '43 to Feb '44 or later based on barrel dates, and other data. This would be roughly 4.1 mil S/N range and higher. NPM made these bolts in-house, apparently the number (8, 9, 11, and 14) indicate drawing and/or design changes. Union Switch & Signal also made UN marked bolts under contract, and these are found towards the later part of production.

So, that kind of indicates maybe 150,000 or more M1 carbines came out of the NPM factory with N14 bolts.



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