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A word from France

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PLN-TAP-7 View Drop Down
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    Posted: Mar 30 2020 at 5:25am
Hi,

I am a French man interested in weapons and with specifically a soft spot for the "la petite carabine américaine" as we used to called the US Carbine M1 when I was a kid.
I guess this came from my dad who had one that I remember (in fact he succevelly had 8).
I went through  with great interest the website many time and a bit through the forum. that is the later which push me to join as I notice some reference to the Carbine in French force hands.
I am now a reservist after a 28 years serving in the Army (half of those in para units).
I was a tad late to have actually known the Carbine in service but I can remember that in my first Para unit they had got rid of the 30 carbine ammunition stock the year I joined it, in 1985.
Also the seniors under officers had used them, in both wooden and folding stock.

Myself, as a young Scout remember to have seen a M1A1 folding stock in the hand of a Para commando squad leader of the 3rd Régiment Parachutiste de Marine (3e RPIMa) in Carcassonne in around 1973.
The M1A1 folding stock was for many years part of the weaponry of our Para commando. I think they have been part of French Air Force plane emergency equipment at some point.

Also, in France it happens that very original examples surfaced: those came from WW2 (american soldier who get part of them for many reasons and one being as a kind of payment for having been sheltered by French families, french resistant who managed to have one, Free French Soldiers who happened to keep them) and the other conflicts France lead after (Indochina and Algeria).

Here is for my presentation,
Regards to all Carbine collectors,
Frederic
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2020 at 6:18am
Welcome to the forum!

Do you ever run-across any of the carbines chambered in the modified 7.62 x 33 round...the 30-short?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2020 at 7:40am
Frederic, welcome to the forums.
I would love to see more pictures of the carbine being used by French forces. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2020 at 10:21am
Welcome to the forum. 
Wayne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2020 at 10:51am
Hi,
Yes, I had one of the modified M1Carbine in 30 short. It was a reward for working a summer with one of my uncle and happened to be my first one. At the time my uncle offered me a Ruger Mini 14 but I stayed adament I wanted an M1. It was a disapointment as the few times I used this Carbine it had ejection problems. I do not know whether it was because of the modifications or the ammunitions or something else. More over it was more difficult to get hold of the 30 short cartridges (which were mostly shortened WW2 stock ammo) than the original .30 cal.
I can not remember whether this Carbine was a WW2 modified or post war. I managed to sell it and never regreted it. What I regret was not to get the Ruger Mini 14 (or even better a original Carbine).

Later, at some point I had, if I remember well a 1965 Plainfield M1.

Regarding posting French Army used Carbine I certainly will.

The French Army did maintain and as so upgraded its Carbine. I am not saying from studies but feelings that in France most of the Carbine one will encounter is original WW2 and few French Army rework. I think that most of the Carbine in French Army hold ended up with the type “C” front band: one can see those in the post war French engagement, particularly in Indochina and Algeria.
Amongst the WW2 example (they used to be seen around quite easely) some are in pristine condition and other battle fields scared.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2020 at 11:19am
Originally posted by PLN-TAP-7 PLN-TAP-7 wrote:

Hi,
Yes, I had one of the modified M1Carbine in 30 short. It was a reward for working a summer with one of my uncle and happened to be my first one. At the time my uncle offered me a Ruger Mini 14 but I stayed adament I wanted an M1. It was a disapointment as the few times I used this Carbine it had ejection problems. I do not know whether it was because of the modifications or the ammunitions or something else. More over it was more difficult to get hold of the 30 short cartridges (which were mostly shortened WW2 stock ammo) than the original .30 cal.

I have wondered if it would have been as simple as finish-reaming the chamber to accept the 7.62x33. I think the short was 7.62x31.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2020 at 3:05pm
If I remember well they would have tighten up one turn the barrel (not sure but I was told so) on the receiver to get them to 30 short. I guess this meant reducing in length one of these parts.
For the cartridges they would have turn them down on a lathe.

And now that I think of I just notice that I mistaken the calibers between 30 short and 30/222.
Mine was a 30/222 and it was reamed as the case is different. That explains why the cartridges were difficult to get by.

I apologize for the mistake but it was some 30 odd years ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SWANEEDMB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 30 2020 at 3:18pm
Sounds like you may have had a 5.7mmj which 'could' also be called a 30/22. I had such a cal but got away from me, very fun cartridge and quite accurate. Welcome to the forum, think we've got more to hear from you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 31 2020 at 2:21am
Hi,
Here is more about that 30-222 caliber here:


It seems to be a French specificity.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 31 2020 at 6:35am
I was not referring to the 30-222. Iver Johnson chambered some in a 30-caliber short for the French market. The shorts OAL was the same as the 7.62x33, but the case was shortened by 1.25mm to prevent chambering of the 33mm 30 carbine cartridge. It would have been fairly easy to finish-ream these chambers for the 7.62x33. I would imagine carbines chambered for this short round would be extremely scarce.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 31 2020 at 9:11am
Hi,
The funny calibers (30 short, 30-222) were made for the French market when its arms regulation restricted badly on what the administration called "war calibers" (which was basically whatever caliber used by an armed force). This way of categorizing calibers was totally inept as it did not take the ballistic into account (a 300 mag was allowed when a 30.06 was subject to restrictions).

As for Iver & Johnson in 30 short, here is one for sell on a French arms web site: It is possible to acquire such a gun whether one goes trough the conundrum of the administration. Of interest is the statement from the seller: It advertised it under the brand "US M1" and says that it can be reamed to .30 carbine caliber. Its price is 550 euros.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 31 2020 at 9:38am
I think they were produced in the mid-80’s like the 9mm Luger models. That one appears to be pristine. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 31 2020 at 10:42am
Here is another one for 590 euros.
I thought it was interesting for collectors across the Atlantic to have a view of the marking on the receiver. The brownish finish color is also noticeable.
The previous one was looking good but on another photo it seems wood worms holes were present on the stock.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 31 2020 at 11:16am
Iver Johnson parts can exhibit that purple finish. One of my 9mm slides wears the same finish.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar 31 2020 at 12:51pm
These restricted cartridge games have been played in other countries as well. Israel developed a 9x21 because the Luger (9x19) was restricted. Same OAL and same ballistics, just a 2mm longer case. I think 38-Super found it’s popularity in South America due to 45acp restrictions.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Road Rat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2020 at 1:03pm
Welcome.  I served a few years in your country.  Saint Mihiel in a Ammo Dump.

I enjoyed my stay in France.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2020 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by Road Rat Road Rat wrote:

Welcome.  I served a few years in your country.  Saint Mihiel in a Ammo Dump.

I enjoyed my stay in France.


Thank you very much. Myself stayed in the USA for three years and I regret a lot not being anymore able to buy my 9mm Parabelum at the supermarket!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnireland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 16 2020 at 7:52pm
Hello from Los Angeles. We have a great film festival here each year for French movies and television series. I am curious about the gun laws in France, and where you go shooting, etc. I am also new to this form, only recently got my first M1 Carbine. When I went into military service in 1964 I was issued the heavy M-14. Better than nothing, but I was always hoping to get the Carbine so I could carry more ammo at less weight. Even with the virus shut down, I was able to find three very respectable bottles of Bordeaux rouge at the market last night. I look forward to your posts.

     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PLN-TAP-7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 17 2020 at 3:26am

Hi,

I thank you for you welcoming me.


I have never been on the USA West coast and that is something I regret a bit.

Finding Bordeaux in CA! What about Napa valley wines?


Well, about the French gun law it is, for the hardcore lover of weapon a challenge but we still can have guns and shoot and we are not the worst allotted in Europe, far from that: I always pity the Brits!


Before 1939 one could have the right to freely buy a 37mm gun, a Mauser C96 or whatever was available on the market. The gun owners difficulties arise with a right wing government and a Mr Daladier, minister of the interior who put in place the bill on guns (that government was scared of a left wing rising!) in 1939.

History proved two things:

1/ that is not the best way to prepare a war and specifically a resistance to an occupant and 2/ once you have such a law it seems impossible to get rid of it. Worst, this law was settled by the German occupant and obviously approved by our shameful Vichy Etat Français (a shame to all well born French really!).

That is for the bad side which went harder with time and evolution of our society.


The good side is that we still can get guns for shooting and hunting through an administrative system (administration is a French hobby).

One has to be part of the French Federation for shooting (FFT) and apply for gun ownership which let you have access to most calibers but no full auto weapons.

That system nonetheless rely on the good will of government employees and one can never be sure you will keep your gun as the detention need is subject to periodic renewal.


Of note, there is lots of people who demonize the guns even if they know nothing about (but you have the same guys over there). Lately we had also to cope with other European countries which went on trying to reduce our access to guns (ban of this and that).

Nonetheless, I am convinced we still have unregistered gun lying around as France has been the theater of many wars.


To make it simple our system works like as follow:


So to get a gun for hunting you have to have an hunting license. A hunter can not have access to handguns and over three rounds guns are banned.


Shooters has to join the FFT, wait six month to get an agreement from the federation, put a request for ownership, wait till a police inquiry is done and eventually get the document. Ammunition ownership is limited (I think it is two thousand round a gun a year). Then, to be able to keep the gun you have to go shooting on a regular basis. One can have more than one gun (maybe up to ten or twelve).


A collector status was supposed being put in place but I do not think that this is settled.


So in the end honest people can have access to guns but it is far from straight forward. As in every other country our criminals do not seem to bother with the administrative side of gun ownership!

It always amuse me to think that French resistant (the real ones, not the guys who all of a sudden had courage in June 1944) where terrorist in the eyes of the Vichy collaborationist government and the Germans, then became heroes at the liberation and, for the one who kept guns went back to a criminal status!


Hope this gives a decent view of how it works across the Atlantic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote johnireland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 17 2020 at 3:47am
Thanks for the wonderful reply. I prefer French blends to the California style of wine making. Also California (the last time I tasted) seemed interested in making big heavy reds. The Italians, for my taste, fall between the French and Californians. My way of judging wine is to imagine I walked into a simple little café in Paris or Nice (or somewhere in-between) and asked for a glass of the house Bordeaux rouge. If it makes me sit back and smile, it is a good wine.

I am aware of France's love of administration, still as you say, gun ownership in France is much better than many other Euro countries. Maybe someday they will allow pistols and revolvers...even if just for the beauty of them, like vintage watches and cameras.

I look forward to talking with you again.

Be well.
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