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A Midway Italian Return Details

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: Carbine Related
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5765
Printed Date: Mar 28 2024 at 4:25am
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Topic: A Midway Italian Return Details
Posted By: Matt_X
Subject: A Midway Italian Return Details
Date Posted: Oct 04 2021 at 10:07pm
I'm going to post the details of this carbine while entering them onto the club data sheet.   There's a few items I'll have questions about, and others I just think are interesting and perhaps provide a clue into the story of these returns.  Perhaps this thread will also be useful to other newbies filling out data sheets.

Background
I did not buy mine from Midway but from someone else who did.  The only changes I know he made are swap of rear sight, and addition of a sling and oiler.   He was supposed to send the adjustable sight it came with from Midway and perhaps he still will.


Receiver
  UNDERWOOD 4043XXX with Ordnance bomb under serial number.
(on the sheet I put the full number)
 Based on Ruth and Scott, by serial number this probably a Sept. 1943 manufacture.
 There's no letter in the bomb.  Does this mean it was made in house ?




Barrel
UNDERWOOD  8-43 with a 5/32" P and an Ordnance bomb.

Receiver, barrel, front sight are all a matte black finish.


Barrel Band
Unmarked Type 1 with sling swivel that has the later, larger, sling opening (5/16").
Does this barrel band, sling swivel, and screw look original?
The swivel is stamped from 0.065" thick steel.  It sseems thin and the unrelieved sharp punched edges of the opening seem likely to abraid the web sling quickly.  I do not have an original to compare with.  





Front Sight
Underwood.  Sight key retention I'm calling a notch.  (yes?)
Sight has been slightly damaged on top. :(  

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stock
Winchester ? low wood (Type 3)and shows some deep sanding after original acceptance. 

Two rivet wide groove handguard seems to match but has a glossier finish that lies on top of the surface.  No stamps found.

The cavity under recoil plate leaves plenty of room indicating manufacture before the size of this mortice was reduced.  Recoil plate is later type, stamped D.I.  ( Inland ?



G.H.D. is the only stamping I could find.  Letters are 1/8" tall and look like WRA G.H.D. examples I've seen in photos on the forum and in Riesch.
There is European style number 7 on the bottom of the pistol grip.  Presuming this a rack number from Italian service.  ???? 



Butt plate is US manufacture. Winchester ?
Looks like it was originally blued?









Replies:
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 04 2021 at 10:52pm
Internally this carbine seems to have an odd mix of parts, with updates and some parts I would not expect would have been retained if refurbished.   

The obvious updates are the rotary safety (stamped H.T.) and the adjustable sight (currently missing).
However the bolt has an early (type 1) extractor even though it has the later notched plunger.

Trigger stamped TB (originally for an IBM).
The brazed trigger housing is stamped BE-B and also has what I think is a T.  




Other Non-Underwood parts noted:
E279 Operating slide (small W stamped inside)

5IS stamped Bolt  (is this stamp a Standard Products 51 ?)


W stamped early firing pin

GE-Q stamped improved Sear (with hole)

W-I stamped early extractor.
 

W stamped magazine catch.



Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 05 2021 at 7:20am
Type 1 extractor
4 million range was not subcontracted.

can you post pick of the rear of the receiver and the rear of the trigger housing?

Any markings inside the stock? check the bridge and the side walls

sight retention is not a notch it is a chisel

-------------
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 05 2021 at 11:04am
Can you post pick of the rear of the receiver and the rear of the trigger housing?




Any markings inside the stock? check the bridge and the side walls

None that I can see.


sight retention is not a notch it is a chisel.
Ah. Thanks. 




Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 05 2021 at 4:56pm
Some trial fitting confirmed what Dan suspected - when installed in the stock, the back of the trigger housing and receiver are contacting the wood. 




Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 05 2021 at 9:14pm
If anyone has opinion about whether the TH contacting the stock will hurt accuracy or cause other issues, would like to hear them. 

Also curious if I'm interpreting the bolt marking correctly or if it should be read 5 IS rather than 51S.

Here's a few more pictures of parts.
The other components from the bolt. 
Middle of the firing pin shows some rust.
Type 1 firing pin. Type 1 ejector.  Later extractor plunger.


Safety and magazine catch components.
Type 3 mag catch  and Type 4 (lever aka rotary) safety. 

Slide type E279A. (W stamped inside on floor of box)

Unlike the barrel (and some of the reciever?) thie slide appears to be entirely dark gray parkerized (other than the slide stop plunger). 


Something I noticed, but a previous owner must have missed, is that with the brazed trigger housing, the housing to reciever pin must be inserted from the right side.  There is a counterbore so the pin's head doesn't stick out.

Some previous person must have missed that.





Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Oct 05 2021 at 9:39pm
Matt, I think your bolt is a 51S Standard Products bolt.  Your sling swivel does appear thin, all of mine measure at least .092 thick. And hopefully you turned the rear sight around as it is backwards in your picture.

-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 05 2021 at 10:04pm
Thank you Wayne!
Suppose it could be an Italian substitute, or a replacement by PW, Midway, or even the previous owner.   

I removed the rear site.  I'm leaving it off as the previous owner promised he'd be putting the adjustable sight in the mail today.  




Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 06 2021 at 12:58pm
In http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/new-here-and-to-m1-carbines_topic5584.html?KW=distorted" rel="nofollow - this thread Floyd and Charlie observe a number of Midway Italian returns have distorted sling swivels.
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/new-here-and-to-m1-carbines_topic5584.html

There's also a photo of a carbine with a rack number on the grip.  Unlike the one in this thread its on a metal tag rather than painted on the wood.


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 06 2021 at 2:51pm
Mine has a rack number like yours, written/painted on. Mine is much more legible though. Will take some pictures when I get back home. 


Posted By: john843
Date Posted: Oct 06 2021 at 4:46pm
[QUOTE=Matt_X]
In http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/new-here-and-to-m1-carbines_topic5584.html?KW=distorted" rel="nofollow - this thread Floyd and Charlie observe a number of Midway Italian returns have distorted sling swivels.

I can't help but think the rifles must have been hung on a nail or peg of some sort for the amount of distension . I can see where the weight of the rifle setting down on the peg over time would do that. Hell, I've hung one of mine by the swivel (carefully, though) a few times when I didn't have a good surface I wanted to lay it on. On the bright side though, it shouldn't be hard at all to square them back up.

John












Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 06 2021 at 9:04pm
My Italian Inland has a painted rack number. It is mostly original other than the stock and rear sight. It appears that it had field upgrades, but not an arsenal rebuild.



Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Oct 06 2021 at 9:42pm
I wonder if those distorted swivels were bent so that a clip type hook would go through and stay centered. Makes as much sense as hanging on a nail.

-------------
OGCA Life member
NRA Life member
Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 06 2021 at 10:32pm
That rack number looks like a stencil, although a different stencil style than I'm used to seeing.

Here's another painted rack number on a W highwood that http://forums.thecmp.org/showpost.php?p=2053543&postcount=2" rel="nofollow - Scott Oh posted on CMP forum.

I think there is another avenue to explore.
Midway had this posted:
Per our supplier, these guns are believed to have come directly from use in the European theatre of WWII, eventually making their way to the Italian Armed forces. From there they went to the Carabinieri – the Italian National Police.

A quick web search of Carabinieri reveals that they are not really the Italian National Police.  Rather they were a part of the military with internal roles including some judicial or police functions.   By my reading of the Wikipedia page, when Musilini was dismissed, Carabinieri in the south followed the orders of the King, and eventually worked with the CLN and the Allies.   In the North, some Carabinieri joined forces with anti-Nazi partizans. 

Given the above information, it seems possible that M1 carbines could have been supplied to Carabinieri before the end of the war in Europe.  I don't know why this would have been neccessary, just pointing out that its possible.  It might be worth trying to find additional historical information about the small arms of the Carabinieri units from 1943-1950s. 





Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Smokpole Smokpole wrote:

I wonder if those distorted swivels were bent so that a clip type hook would go through and stay centered. Makes as much sense as hanging on a nail.

More sense or more likely IMHO.  Did you see the photos French Addict posted http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5539&PID=45026&title=italian-m1-carbine-info-and-requests#45026" rel="nofollow - here ?
That doesn't look to me like a canvas web sling in either photo.  I'm not even sure there's enough length in the web slings to use like that.



Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 7:53pm
Rear sight.
In all honesty, I had given up on getting this (the carbine had come with from Midway).  But it showed up today.    Anyway...

Its a type 3, adjustable made of stamped parts.  On the right side its marked J.A.O. and below that the drawing number.  Its my understanding that the sights with the number are post war production.
If so, and that's found to be common, perhaps that's another clue as to when these were gone through and refinished.

This sight has no white in the elevation marks and looks like it was all black finish at one time.








Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 9:27pm
My Inland Italian import from Midway has the same sight. The Inland is all original except the rear sight and stock without any rebuild marks. I thought it was a field upgrade during the war.



Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 15 2021 at 10:53pm
Maybe I got that wrong and you're right.  Not sure where I got that from.
Looking in Riesch, 8th edition for a quick reference it seems possible the type 3 sights marked with manufacturer and part number could have been field installed by the US Army in Europe.   But it would have been very late in the war or just post war.

There's a forum post on some of the earliest documented field replacements.  
Here
http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/89th-chemicalmortar-div-adjustable-rear-sights_topic3983.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/89th-chemicalmortar-div-adjustable-rear-sights_topic3983.html



Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 26 2021 at 7:46pm
Comparison of the sling swivel that came with this carbine and the new one from Northridge.
Posting in case other Midway returns have the same or similar replacements.
Also for anyone wanting to know what Northridge's look like close up.




To address the contact of the receiver with the stock, I carefully shaved some wood off.  Since its to be a shooter tightened the recoil plate and also replaced the firing pin and extractor with later revisions.   Reinstalled the adjustable sight and also replaced the sling with a good condition post war D-tip.




Posted By: Pro Libertate
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 2:21am
I'm just curious here... what makes you say the one on the left is an unknown/Italian replacement? Sure looks like a standard swivel to me. How does it differ from other type 1 swivels you've observed?

I received a swivel very similar to the Northridge one shown in a parts lot I purchased on Ebay. I was curious as to who manafactured the thing, and now I'm pretty confident I know. Thanks!


-------------
Eric
NRA Life Member
NRA-Certified RSO
Project Appleseed “Rifleman”

When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!"


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 9:16am
I'm not positive about my conclusion.
Reasons I think it is a later, cheaper replacement:
1. Stamping is thin.
.065" vs. the .092 W5USMC measured on his known originals.
2. Inside long edge the sling loops around feels sharp.  In machinist language, the corner hasn't been broken or chamfered.
3. The contours and shape seem a little crude.  That's pretty subjective I know.  

I was told the barrel band, screw and swivel on my SG are reproductions (photo below), so I have no 1940s examples to physically compare.
It does not look or feel like either of the swivels pictured above but has the shape and contous I'd more expect.
H'm, I'll pull it today and take a closer look and how the loop is formed and measure the thickness.




Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

H'm, I'll pull it today and take a closer look and how the loop is formed and measure the thickness.


The swivel from my SG (that I was told is repro) is on the right.
It measures 0.0975" thick  but it the cut of the metal and fit of the rolled eye does not look like the current Northridge repro.



And lets include the Northridge comparison so its in the same post.



Posted By: Pro Libertate
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:10am
Interesting. The band that came on my Italian import NPM (purchased directly from Midway) measured .092", but I wouldn't say its edges were particularly chamfered, though I suppose this is all relative to those on a reproduction. Wayne's certainly got a "trained eye" for discrepancies between counterfeits and genuine articles.




-------------
Eric
NRA Life Member
NRA-Certified RSO
Project Appleseed “Rifleman”

When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!"


Posted By: Rebel92
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:20am
This came on my Midway Carbine


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Pro Libertate Pro Libertate wrote:

Wayne's certainly got a "trained eye" for discrepancies between counterfeits and genuine articles.
Thanks, but I am still very much in the learning phase, especially when dealing with type I bands and swivels. All I said was Matt's swivel looked thin, and it is in fact thinner than the originals that I have. I will say that it matches his band finish much better than the Northridge swivel does. Lets just say that I am still on the fence with this swivel. 



-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:40am
I'm just speculating here, but it seems that since the 1970s some portion of the Carabinieri were using these longer cross shoulder slings to carry in a ready position.

And that probably is why some of the Midway returns have swivels like this.

  https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=74403&p=500903&viewfull=1#post500903" rel="nofollow - https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=74403&p=500903&viewfull=1#post500903

The guy I bought my carbine was starting to retrofit it for resale to WW2 reenactors.   He knows Garands well enough to do that, but apparently discovered carbines are more complicated.  When he got the carbine from Midway IF the swivel was bent as shown above,  he would have wanted to  replaced it - maybe with the cobbled c-tip sling and oiler he bought for the WW2 look.



Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:50am
Not visible in the photos is how sharp the inside edge of the swivel feels.   It seemed like it would abraid through whatever web sling was installed.   Northridge had the swivel on ebay for sale seperate from a repro barrel band.  That's the main reason I bought theirs. 

I agree Wayne. The finish is more like a parkerize.  I'm now curious if Numrich and others have a different source for their repro band and swivel kits.  In their website photos they look black, but the only way to find out out is to order one or if someone here has one and sees this.


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Oct 28 2021 at 12:23am
Back when I was tracking the Exporter, Importer, US Customs Report, # of Carbines and Bill of Laden.
Midway had put this (in part) out early on:
"There are no records indicating how the Italian Armed Forces came into possession of these WWII M1 Carbines."
There are 146,863 Carbines listed on the Foreign Military Assistance Charts, being supplied thru MAP up to 1963 to Italy.
If I'm reading it correctly this total would span from 1950 to 1963. Reporting to Congress then became yearly reports in 1964.
Of course this number wouldn't include any carbines Italy received by purchase or other means thru other countries, than the US.

I was curious about, but have seen none so far that were reported with the Star and Date stamped on the top of the rear barrel. Like FAT 62 as a example showing the Italians had worked on it. If All of these were acquired from the Italians... Wouldn't you expect to see the FAT 62 stamps (example date) like the Pictured example below?

3,120 Carbines Reported on US Customs Report
Below is the Exporter: LIMEX GMBH of Germany's US Customs Record and Bill of Laden for the M1 Carbines to Importer PW ARMS INC.
Appears that PW ARMS INC. is their largest trading partner.


#4... BILL OF LADING...... HLCUHAM210277893
PRODUCT.................RIFLE 3120 PCS M1 RIFLE HS CODE 9303 3000
IMPORTER............... PW ARMS INC.
SUPPLIER................. LIMEX GMBH
ARRIVAL DATE..........2021-04-02
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN..GERMANY
GROSS WEIGHT KGS.... 22507 KGS
QUANTITY................ 151 PCS


LIMEX GMBH SHIPMENTS (Link likely timed out)
Open Link, Click on 'Shipments' then See #4 for detailshttps://www.importgenius.com/suppliers/limex-gmbh" rel="nofollow - Limex Gmbh | See Recent Shipments | ImportGenius

I'm curious if #5 on the list Code: HS CODE 9301 9000 Could possibly be spare parts.
Is listed as '297 PIECES RIFLES'
Could these be Barrels ?

I'm not a member of the Web Site link so my Data is limited.
But I do see a lot of BM59 Rifle and Beretta pistol parts kits.

Later Midway had a *Update* on their description of these. In part it read:

UPDATE 5/19/2021 - While working through the grading process on the M1 Carbines, we now believe these issued carbines were turned back in to the U.S. Government for a functionality Check and Test. Our supplier believes this process would have been done in Europe and would have occurred prior to their transfer to the Italian Armed Forces. As part of the Check and Test process, parts may have been replaced or upgraded. Examples of replaced or upgraded parts could include stocks, bayonet lugs, sights, bolts, safeties or other small parts. In rare cases, barrels may have been replaced, but they appear consistent with wartime production and use. There is no evidence suggesting these guns have been refinished, just brought to a serviceable standard prior to their transfer.

My Point, The Italians returned Carbines to the US via the CMP. These Carbines were Exporter from Germany. Question is how many of these 3,120 came from Italy and other European countries ?

I've read about small parts being made by FN not just to include stocks.... Like Butt Plates.. etc.
Maybe it is a possibility that FN or someone else made some Swivels.



Much of this with a little more detail can be found in my replies #'s 16, 17, 20, and 23 in this thread on Milsurps:  https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=74117" rel="nofollow - https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=74117

Just tossing it out there... Why NO FAT / DATE ON BARRELS.
Maybe I missed some being reported with this, 

Has anyone seen or heard of any Midway Carbines with the FAT / DATE ON BARRELS ?

Ch-P777



-------------
Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 3:08pm
Re: Source of this import lot.
 I agree there is a lot to question with respect to the story of where these came from.  

Re: Sling swivels.
Adding a couple of new photos for comparison.






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