Ruth: SG Stock marked OI/40A, Found OI/39A
Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: Parts Markings
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URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5164
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Topic: Ruth: SG Stock marked OI/40A, Found OI/39A
Posted By: painter777
Subject: Ruth: SG Stock marked OI/40A, Found OI/39A
Date Posted: Jan 12 2021 at 7:10pm
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In War Baby, In the summing up Saginaw's Carbine Program, In the stock section page 435, Larry mentions: Type A, Variation 1 with the I cut Oiler Slot (Type I) was found with RMC 40 A Type A (M1), Variation 2 with Oval Oiler Slot (Type II) was found with sling well marking of OI 40 A. Type A (M1), Variation 2 with Oval Oiler Slot (Type II) was found with sling well marking with upside down U and a 7. Type A (M1), Variation 2 with Oval Oiler Slot (Type II) was found with sling well marking with RSG and 9 A. Type A (M1), Variation 2 with Oval Oiler Slot (Type II) was found with sling well marking with 75 E RSG Type A (M1), Variation 2 with Oval Oiler Slot (Type II) was found with sling well marking with RSG 88 F Type A (M1), Variation 4 with Oval Oiler Slot with modified slide clearance cut and was found with sling well marking with RSG 105 B. This one noted use during late production. There is no mention of Serial numbers ranges to the letter/number codes I could find. Which leads me to think he was just using observations from examples he looked at. Am I wrong ? Where was Larry heading with this information? Did he believe the letter/number codes used by Saginaw SG had some rhyme and reason to them, maybe a increasing number and letter as production moved forward ? IF Based on increasing number/letter codes... Could these have been based on Deliveries as accepted by SG? I've often thought the added markings could have been applied by a In House Stock Inspector at Saginaw, before assembly commenced in that stock. Assume they would have inspected deliveries and possibly used different gages and jigs to inspect them with. Maybe numbers/letters were related to order numbers/invoices. Letters to a inspection section and or shift. I think back to the picture of a Robert Irwin worker checking the actions fit in a new made stock. And would think SG would double check before wasting any labor on a stock to be found later to be out of spec.  There is also no mention of the Type II TRIMBLE TN stocks that were used by Saginaw SG. 2 examples pictured below. I'm asking because I happened across a older post on Milsurps today from a member in Europe that showed his SG 3.37M that appears as Original. His Sling Well is marked 1 digit below the 2nd example listed above of OI 40 A. Here is SG 3,37 mil with OI 39 A in the Sling Well:      Has there been any Updates I'm not aware of with the Letter/Number markings found in Saginaw used stocks ? Thx, Charlie-Painter777
------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Replies:
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jan 24 2021 at 9:06pm
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Type
A (M1), Variation 4 with Oval Oiler Slot with modified slide clearance
cut and was found with sling well marking with RSG 105 B. This one noted
use during late production. 5,86X,XXX that was for sale here https://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=274184" rel="nofollow - https://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=274184 Was featured in CCNL 356 and has the following noted on its datasheet https://imgur.com/Povbck8" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/Povbck8 RSG G 105 So there's another serial number to associate with those markings. |
Posted By: welbytwo
Date Posted: Jan 24 2021 at 10:49pm
| to my knowledge no one has come up with anything other then just early were low numbers and higher numbers were higher serial codes-I have a file full of different numbers and letters at end--my lowest is 8A |
Posted By: welbytwo
Date Posted: Jan 24 2021 at 11:04pm
| 102A is highest--on a 586xxxx |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jan 26 2021 at 10:51pm
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Are those Trimble stocks associated with SG receiver numbers? |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Jan 27 2021 at 4:19pm
Post your findings here: SG Carbine stock Sling Well markings1-S.G. Letter and Number Sling Well observations.
Charlie-Painter777
------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Feb 03 2021 at 1:44pm
Post your findings here: SG Carbine stock Sling Well markings1-S.G. Letter and Number Sling Well observations.
Requesting any one with or viewing a S.G. to reply Thanks All, Charlie-Painter777 ------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Feb 03 2021 at 4:41pm
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FWIW the 105 that was in CCNL 356 is a Type III or a Type II cut down. https://i.imgur.com/Povbck8.jpg    |
Posted By: jim77cg
Date Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 2:30pm
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Here is one more stock to add to the listing. It started life as a Type
II, but the high wood was removed at some point. Has a faint, but
recognizable SG cartouche on the right handside. When I purchased it,
it held SG receiver #33288XX.  |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 6:15pm
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Thx Jim77, Appears to be 51 A. With the 1 being Double struck or rebounded. Charlie-P777 ------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 7:43pm
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I think that may be a 7 not a 1, 7 with a line through it, like the old days? ------------- Wayne USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 10:09pm
I Zoomed and even had the Wife and her friend look at it for other opinions. First they thought a 7 with the line thru it. But when looking closer it looks like a 1 with the top squiggly that has been double struck or rebounded. Though not a very good picture above I have a picture of one of mine that has the TRIMBLE over TN, with 41 and a B stamped over SG. If you look closely the 1 in my 41 has the same top detail as Jim77's 51 A. Top of the 1 have a sorta ~ to them. I also noticed Jim77's picture file was titled 51A, so I believe he thinks so also. But It can be changed if I see a 7 has the same detail. Thx Charlie-P777 ETA: I just pulled out 47E and the 7 has like a Serif top to it, looks nothing like the 1 pictured above.
------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
W5USMC wrote:Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Feb 05 2021 at 11:24pm
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Yes Charlie, I just zoomed in on it, agree a double stamped 1 not a 7. ------------- Wayne USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
Posted By: jim77cg
Date Posted: Feb 06 2021 at 11:56am
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Didn't mean to cause so much controversy. I have always thought it was 51 A, with the 1 being a double strike. I should have stated that. If true confirms they used individual number dies to apply these markings. Hopefully this new picture in brighter sun resolves the issue. Appears first strike was slightly off to the left.  |
Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Feb 13 2021 at 2:33pm
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Can anyone with quick access to CCNL's 120 and 281 help me out? Need to check 2 COM's: CCNL 120 for SG 5,864,xxx and NL 281 for SG 5,864,2xx Need: 1-S.G. Letter and Number Sling Well observations. 2-Stock Type (I, II, III) 3-Stock Maker's Letter Markings 4-Serial# if known PM me or reply here. Thx, Ch-P777 ------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: Durango56
Date Posted: Feb 14 2021 at 12:03pm
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com 120 is a type III stock with 1/4" tall RSG and a larger oval O below it. Com 281 is a type III stock , RSG 105F in sling well,. COM 120 did not have SG in box on right side of stock just cross cannon
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Posted By: hunterman
Date Posted: Feb 14 2021 at 3:24pm
COM 281 stock is I-cut, low wood. The article suggests it may be a "floor sweep" carbine, made from whatever parts are available at the end of production. |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Apr 23 2021 at 6:11pm
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This SG stock and receiver looks like they are the original mates? Unfortunately can't see the first part of the serial number. :( Possibly a wide tange receiver. https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/military-rifles-m1-carbine/fantastic-m1-carbine-original-un-touched-saginaw-sg-high-wood-flip-sight.cfm?gun_id=101639983" rel="nofollow - https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/military-rifles-m1-carbine/fantastic-m1-carbine-original-un-touched-saginaw-sg-high-wood-flip-sight.cfm?gun_id=101639983 ____167 Highwood Slingwell RSG [large letters in middle] S 7 B |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: May 27 2021 at 8:44pm
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SN: 3,519,667 Highwood with oval cut. (aka Type II) TRIMBLE TN B551 Ref: CMP post http://forums.thecmp.org/showpost.php?p=2048737&postcount=11" rel="nofollow - http://forums.thecmp.org/showpost.php?p=2048737&postcount=11 Hotlinked image from imgur  |
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: May 27 2021 at 9:10pm
| I suspect that's a Bavarian number, unless I am missing something. |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: May 27 2021 at 9:19pm
Interesting you say that. There is another stamp parallel to the buttplate that may be something like a rack number.  Here's the direct link to all he posted https://imgur.com/a/v0BEKFE I'm hoping he'll respond and maybe we can get some closer views of the other side for signs of the ordnance stamps.
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Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: May 28 2021 at 1:25pm
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I think it is 3551 The Bundesheer carbines often had a Rack number below the Oiler slot Ch-P777
------------- Living Free because of those that serve..... |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: May 28 2021 at 4:13pm
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Could be. If you guys wouldn't mind taking a look at the thread at CMP there's another SG pictured there as well. Both are in the same thread, two different carbines and owners. I've asked the owner of this one to look for other stamps and marks. If you not on the CMP forum, I'm fine with passing along info and questions. The other SG in the thread has stamps that raised questions in my head. Some of which has to do with the surface finish. Please take a look and see what you think. http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=282257" rel="nofollow - http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=282257 Thanks! - Matt
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 28 2021 at 4:48pm
Surface finish of the sanding job? The markings are not consistent with any SG stock markings I have seen.   ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: May 28 2021 at 6:21pm
| Yeah, I was going to mention on the CMP site that those stamps are wishful thinking. |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: May 28 2021 at 7:01pm
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Yes. That's what I was afraid of. It looked like coarse somewhat cross-grain sanding in that area and then the very sharp boxed SG was applied afterward. Also the RSG didn't look like the RSG I've seen but it seemed best not to rush to judgement. On the other hand the Trimble looks legit. It will be interesting to see if it has any evidence of being an SG or an NPM. I'm thinking it might be a replacement?
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 29 2021 at 8:09am
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as pointed out that Trimble stock markings in the slingwell are consistent with some of the Bavarian/Austrian returns where they marked the last 4 numbers of the serial number on various parts. Suffice to say, that stock was not on that SG when the numbers were stamped and there is nothing that ties it to Saginaw.  http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/carbineAGT_0439.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/carbineAGT_0439.html The numbers by the buttstock may be from another carbine it was on or a rack number? Typically the rack number is on the bottom of the trigger housing.  ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jun 06 2021 at 8:57pm
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OK. Maybe we'll do better on the ones in this thread. http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=282591forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=282591" rel="nofollow - http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=282591 Start with the second one, a 3,400,xxx carbine. Front sight stake is not what I would expect, but the stock looks to me like its a real SG.  Slingwell has RSG in the middle 56 below  The other is a 5.85. We'ld have to ask for a slingwell photo.  |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jul 21 2021 at 8:07am
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How 'bout this one? Looks OK to me. Only question I had was the cartouche is a little further forward than I've seen in other examples. 3501980 Highwood stock RSG in large letters - middle. 7 6 F large in middle (overstamping RSG) RIA stamp on the stock so may not be original to the carbine. https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/military-rifles-m1-carbine/saginaw-gear-sg-m1-carbine-non-import-all-correct-w-flip-sight-hw-sg-stock-t1-band.cfm?gun_id=101676768#lg-2" rel="nofollow - https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/military-rifles-m1-carbine/saginaw-gear-sg-m1-carbine-non-import-all-correct-w-flip-sight-hw-sg-stock-t1-band.cfm?gun_id=101676768#lg-2 |
Posted By: RWS-67
Date Posted: Aug 04 2021 at 9:14am
| As per your request, I have a S.G. type II stock W/ RSG 67 C in slingwell. Serial # 34707XX for your consideration. Rich |
Posted By: RWS-67
Date Posted: Aug 07 2021 at 4:36pm
| I may be a little late for your quest for SG slingwell letters & #'s, but here goes: High wood TII RSG 67 C Ser. # 34707XX |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Aug 07 2021 at 9:27pm
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I don't think its too late. I assume Painter777 has just been busy. The more examples that can be documented the better chance we can figure out what the markings represent and if they are chonological - which to some degree they appear to be. |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Aug 11 2021 at 10:52am
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36 B T2 RSG 3.44 http://www.gunbroker.com/item/906518851" rel="nofollow - http://www.gunbroker.com/item/906518851" rel="nofollow - https://www.gunbroker.com/item/906518851 ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 12:04pm
Thanks Dan. Nice Highwood. Nice looking carbine - apparently some bidders thought so too! Interesting that the only dings of note are in the slingwell.  |
Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 2:29pm
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They look like batch numbers from the furniture suppliers. Not stocks, but furniture, like chairs and couches. Here is an example from a Robert W Irwin Co. using this exact labelling technique. https://grpmcollections.org/Detail/objects/91570" rel="nofollow - https://grpmcollections.org/Detail/objects/91570 |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 3:23pm
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Thats interesting. Seems like there are several interelated puzzles with these slingwell stamping. What do the numbers and letters represent? (Are they sequential? some sort of date code? batch? employee mark? etc) Who stamped them? Where in the process were they stamped. My understanding is that all stock manufacturer identifiers were stamped by the stock maker. Its curious that the RSG stamps vary in size and location within the sling well. Hopefully this survey will also turn up a possible pattern to this. It seems at least in this example, the letter-number stamp was applied later.  Additionally none of the RSG stocks on Grand Rapids built carbines have the letter-number stamps. So I think that's why it is believed these stamps were added at Saginaw. Whatever the reason for the code, it apparently wasn't needed at Saginaw's Grand Rapids operation. Could it be something about how Saginaw plant's layout? Or just a different solution to part of the manufacturing - akin to how each contractor came up with their own sighting range and adjustment procedures?
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Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Aug 12 2021 at 4:21pm
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Did Saginaw get a run of bad stocks maybe? Possibly discovered post-production making all the brass cranky? They were supposed to have "Integration Committees" standardizing everything between the different primaries meeting every four to six weeks. Army Ordnance and Procurement WWII 1991 pages 175-176 (197-198 in pdf) https://history.army.mil/html/books/010/10-10/cmh_pub_10-10.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://history.army.mil/html/books/010/10-10/cmh_pub_10-10.pdf |
Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 9:55am
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The date codes used by the Saginaw plant prior to the war use a letter for the month, followed by a one or two digit number for the day, followed by a single digit number for the year, then sometimes followed by a line or shift digit that may be either a letter or number. Date H-19- 9 5, August 19th, 1929. This example is used on page two of this pdf: https://hotrod.gregwapling.com/chevrolet/1929-30.pdf Another example of a Saginaw transmission: J77 - Oct 7 , 1937 Found here: https://vccachat.org/ubbthreads.php/topics/122494/1938-transmission-date-codes.html Also listed are date codes and subsequent serial numbers: 1) Date Code: A78 Ser# pad is blank (top shift) 2) Date Code: J77 Stamped Ser# SE5ii42 7 (top shifter) 3) Date Code: A31 Stamped Ser# C18735 (top shifter) 4) Date Code: A12 Stamped Ser# N1958X (Pontiac column shift) 5) Date Code: 319 Ser# Plate blank (Remains of Vacuum shift) Date code H107 still in use in 1968:  https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/saginaw-4-speed-with-a-x.760340/ |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 11:51am
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Guys, The second post has a list that was updated. Remember that the serial numbers are what is observed and it is possible that the carbine has been restored. @ Matt, Is that stock 6F or 76 F? is there a serial? Yes, the numbers and letter appear to be stamped after the RSG Some stock manufactures used a Julian calendar date that was inked in the slide channel. Most of these markings are long gone. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/stock-markings-possible-julian-date-or-otherwise_topic2741.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/stock-markings-possible-julian-date-or-otherwise_topic2741.html Sprague & Carleton used numbers under the buttplate presumed to be Julian dates http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/markings-under-the-buttplate_topic3007.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/markings-under-the-buttplate_topic3007.html (note) the toolbar at top has 3 google search bars to search all three of out websites. chose the one on left and search Julian for more posts. When it comes to the Saginaw plant it was speculated that the numbers and letter were inspectors marks. It seems that this may not be the case. The letters A-G have been observed with one outlier of a upside down U. Leave out the U and there are only 7 letter, clearly not enough to represent months. The numbers go from 6 to 105, again too many for months, but possibly weeks? throw in the fact that Saginaw (both factories) only delivered for 12 months total, now throw in the letters. I do not think these are stock Julian dates. If we take 105 (highest number) and times by 6 (A-G) we get 630. Looking at one of my favorite newsletters, 357, we see that Saginaw @ Saginaw was assigned 638070 serial numbers. Leaving out scrap rate and and unused serial numbers, and making simple math we are talking possibly 1000 serial numbers to a "lot" for delivers. ^^^***THIS IS JUST SPECULATION!***^^^ __________________________________________________________________ @ Mortar, highly unlikely that there was a bad run and every carbine was recalled fro stock replacement. We have found ordnance document fro much smaller problems. The Integration Committee was held at Underwood's corporate headquarters in NYC http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/where-are-they-today_topic1381.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/where-are-they-today_topic1381.html Saginaw was part of General Motors. As a matter of fact the contracts were listed under General Motors and broken down by divisions. There were many of them! Buick, Oldsmobile, Cadillac, Pontiac, AC-Delco, Brown Lipe Chapman, Guide lamp div, Frigidaire, and the list goes on and on! Most if not all GM divisions were involved with wartime production including those in Canada and overseas. Saginaw Steering Gear division made steering gears and I am sure other automotive items. There was also a Saginaw Malleable Iron division of GM. the common thread was they were both in Saginaw Michigan. One was not a division of the other, they were both divisions of GM. Saginaw Malleable Iron (formerly Saginaw Grey Iron) was a casting foundry that produced things such as transmission cases. They did have a part in many wartime items for GM and they made the butt-plate for the M1a1 and supposedly trigger housing forgings for Saginaw and Inland. That PDF is of interest as it mentions Ferro, another item that we are looking for in relation to post war flash hiders and recoil checks marked F in an oval as well as postwar M1a1 buttplates marked F Should anyone want to try and research it. http://www.google.com/search?q=ferro&safe=vss&sitesearch=www.uscarbinecal30.com" rel="nofollow - https://www.google.com/search?q=ferro&safe=vss&sitesearch=www.uscarbinecal30.com ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 1:28pm
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@ Mortar. I like the comparison with Saginaw's casting date codes Isn't purpose of casting dates at least in part to track issues if they occur, as well as wear to the molds? Our sample group is still very small. It will be interesting to see whether we start to find duplicates or a wider variety of combinations. @Dan The slingwell photo is from the Guns International link. I'll repost it below. I think its a 7 6 F with each character individually stamped. Fonts dont even seem to match Stock was through a US rebuild s ono guarentee it was always mated to the receiver.
 |
Posted By: Mortar-Forker
Date Posted: Aug 14 2021 at 11:15pm
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I don't think they are GM date codes, but it was mentioned and GM methodology is good to consider. I think batch codes are more likely as they seem somewhat sequential and batch codes would be helpful in tracking parts from multiple suppliers, especially if you want to track a small number of parts in a large run of rifles. Maybe the plant was stamping them on the way in the door. I don't know and am speculating. It is an interesting question. |
Posted By: RWS-67
Date Posted: Aug 19 2021 at 7:57am
Found a loose S.G. stock....102 B T3 RSG 
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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Aug 19 2021 at 8:22am
Thanks. Can you provide some more details of the letter sizes and locations? Something like this RSG G 105----------------- There's a low wood/cut down SG on ebay right now, but can't read the slingwell. It has a vertical mortice in the barrel band location. Looks hacked. Probably fixable.
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Posted By: RWS-67
Date Posted: Aug 20 2021 at 3:02pm
| The RSG is normal size above a larger 102 below. The B is approx. the same size as the RSG letters... Hope this helps... Rich |
Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Aug 28 2021 at 10:42pm
A beat up RSG stock on ebay. ------------- Wayne USMC Retired NRA Life Member |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Aug 29 2021 at 8:31pm
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Thanks. Oval, Low wood, maybe cut down high wood? Stamped on left side 3668745 [seller believes was carbine serial number stamped by IDF] RSG large upper right 84 D in middle |
Posted By: wick57
Date Posted: Dec 03 2021 at 4:29pm
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Late to the party here. I have a SG stock ser # 3357xxx. https://imgur.com/3Hw9Jsr" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/3Hw9Jsr I see IO and 4 6 A. If you look closely, to me, I also almost see an R in a different font struck lightly before the IO. Thoughts?? Wick  ------------- Wick |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 08 2021 at 9:16am
I can see what appears to be an R. Not sure at all. If the stock was made by Robert Irwin, we'd expect the IO to be overstamped on an SG. If it the stock was made by Overton for Inland, then transfered to Saginaw, why the R? Comparing with the Overton for Inland stamp on the http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/stocks.html" rel="nofollow - Stocks webpage, the O looks wider.  |
Posted By: wick57
Date Posted: Dec 08 2021 at 10:35am
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Interesting observation, Matt. I went back just now and checked height and width of the "O" against another INLAND stock cartouche with calipers. Both H and W were identical. Difference in the photos might be a slight angle shift in camera perspective. Wick ------------- Wick |
Posted By: Why Carbines?
Date Posted: Dec 08 2021 at 10:42am
| It's pretty easy to determine the difference between Irwin made and Overton made stocks, just look a the nose profile or look for any markings in the barrel channel and slide well since they both used different ink stamps formats there (the slide well). |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 16 2021 at 2:03pm
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Wick57, Can you post a few more photos of the stock? Esp the nose? |
Posted By: wick57
Date Posted: Dec 16 2021 at 7:41pm
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Hi. Yes I will but it will be several days. I am out of town through the holidays. Wick ------------- Wick |
Posted By: PingCMP
Date Posted: Dec 27 2021 at 12:44am
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This is an M1 oval cut, highwood on S.G. 33414xx which I found in original configuration. I won't to attempt to divine what the marks are  |
Posted By: wick57
Date Posted: Dec 27 2021 at 3:58pm
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Matt_X - Here are the additional photos of the nose of the stock you requested. https://imgur.com/r1ccyO5" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/r1ccyO5 https://imgur.com/onKI7IJ" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/onKI7IJ https://imgur.com/vPe5zJo" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/vPe5zJo Any thoughts welcome. Wick ------------- Wick |
Posted By: ncin1911
Date Posted: May 13 2022 at 6:21am
IBM GB listing in RSG stock: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/933091320" rel="nofollow - https://gunbroker.com/item/933091320    |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jun 18 2022 at 4:45pm
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Some other sideways X overstamps have shown up on CMP and milsurps recently. Do we think that is a 101 A? with an X over the first 1? From the photos on gun broker I'm going to go with Low wood (Type III) unless someone thinks its a cut down. RSG located high. Original serial number unknown. |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jun 18 2022 at 5:24pm
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Charlie sent me some others he's dug up but has been to busy to post. The Quality Hardware acceptance stamp on the last one adds another twist! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Either this is the same stock and carbine already on the list, or we have a second example. SG 3262XXX TYPE II RSG [high in slingwell] A [sideways] BOMB [sideways] 8 [at 45]  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SG 5861XXX, TYPE III stock RSG [middle] 102 [1 has an oval O overstamp]  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [From EBAY STOCK only listing] TYPE II Stock RSG [Bomb sideways] 7 [upside down] C [sideways]  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unknown Carbine UNKNOWN STOCK TYPE TRIMBLE [Top]TN 48-D [Upside down] TSG  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- QHMC unknown serial number. [unknown stock type, possible late Type III]
O [oval or sideways] RSG [middle]  +------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LATE QHMC 4,7-4,8 Stock Type ? with QHMC CC O [middle] RSG [bottom]  |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jun 18 2022 at 5:36pm
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Loose Stock discussed on CMP forum http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=299068" rel="nofollow - http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=299068 Type II [R] SG [barely visible, slingwell was refinished] 1 4 F  |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jun 18 2022 at 5:48pm
Found it. http://forums.thecmp.org/showpost.php?p=2074842&postcount=437" rel="nofollow - http://forums.thecmp.org/showpost.php?p=2074842&postcount=437 Stock stamped with -U- post-war Underwood rebuild ( Inland carbine) Original carbine unknown Type III or type II cut down. RSG [high, partially sanded] x [sideways] 9 4 B [low]  |
Posted By: Connor38
Date Posted: Dec 26 2022 at 11:13am
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5.855 S.G. With an RSG Stock. Sling well has 9 D as well as a faint RSG. The carbine is believed to be as issued. Has SG in the the box as well as the ordnance stamp on the right side.
It’s very hard to tell, but with the right lighting it appears there may be an 8 or a 9 between the definitive 9 and D making it a possible 98 or 99 D
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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 26 2022 at 2:39pm
Can you post a photo, either here or on https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/358556-new-to-me-saginaw-sg-carbine/" rel="nofollow - your thread at USmilitaria ? If you can also show the slide opening as well, maybe some of the more knowledgable guys can say if it started as a highwood and got cut down or was always a low wood. From the photos you posted, I agree it looks to be unrestored and was missed in the various upgrade and rebuild programs.
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Posted By: Connor38
Date Posted: Dec 26 2022 at 10:58pm
| I will post pics for y’all. |
Posted By: Connor38
Date Posted: Dec 26 2022 at 11:41pm
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https://imgur.com/a/aZ6UdRo" rel="nofollow - https://imgur.com/a/aZ6UdRo Here ya go boys. If you look between the 9 and what I think is a D you can see what I think is a faint 9. The RSG is there in the top of the sling well but it’s faint. I promise it’s there lol I apologize for the crummy photos.       |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 27 2022 at 10:30am
Thanks. I agree its a 9 9 D The RSG is too faint for me to be sure I'm seeing it. Am I correct the letters are about the same size as a the 9 9? Let's call this a Type III stock as it left the factory unless someone more experienced informs us otherwise. ________________________________________ I'm going to work on updating the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet will allow quick sorting by serial number, stock type, or slingwell markings. We can then cut and paste them back in the thread, or maybe give it to Jack for a supplement to his SG sheets. One change that needs to implemented is some way to uniquely identify the stock so we know if we have two that are similar versus two reports of the same stock. |
Posted By: Connor38
Date Posted: Dec 27 2022 at 4:20pm
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If the D is a different size it’s close to whatever size the 9 is. I can look at it again in person.
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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 27 2022 at 5:29pm
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I would describe the RSG in both of these as approximately the same size lettering as the numbers  In contrast to the RSG letters in the next photo which are smaller than the numbers. |
Posted By: Connor38
Date Posted: Dec 27 2022 at 6:19pm
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My hand guard is marked with the small RSG which is also faint. My sling well I believe has the same small font RSG. It’s just barely there, but with the right light you can make it out.
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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jan 16 2023 at 12:00pm
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A big thanks to everyone who has contributed. Please keep them coming! List Update 1. This is a summary following the same format Painter777 posted early in this thread. Stocks are listed in order of the sling well stamp number and then letter. 2. The question arose whether there were duplicate reports of the same stock on the list. Therefore, on the full spreadsheet I am now including additional information which will not be posted on-line. A full serial number will help this - send it to me by if you don't want to post it on-line. Type Slingwell Stamps Carbine 2 6 B RSG 3,256 1 ? 8 E IR-IP 3,259 2 [? 8?] F TRIMBEL TN/ S.G. 3,341 2 [8 or S] 7B RSG unk narrow tang? 2 U 7 8 A 3,262 2 9 A RSG Unk 2 14 F _SG obscured refinished loose stock 2 36 B RSG 3,44 2? 39 A OI 3,37 34F RSG 3,35 1 40A RMC Unk 2 40A OI UnK 2 41 B TRIMBLE/TN+SG UnK 1 43F RMC 3,348 45D OI 3,38 2? 46 A IO 3,357 2 47E RSG loose stock 4 8 D TRIMBLE TN/ TSG Unk 2? 48D TRIMBLE TN/TSG 3,384 2? 49E RSG 3,39 2* 51A RSG 3,328 2 51E RSG loose stocl 2* 53E RSG 5,858 2 56 RSG 3,400 62C RSG 3,42 2 67 C RSG 3,47 2 75E RSG UnK 2 76 F RSG 3,501 2 82E RSG loose stock 2* 84 D RSG 3,668 ? 2 88F RSG UnK 2* 94B, x RSG on Inland, Underwood rebuild 3 99D RSG 5,85 3 101A X RSG on IBM, RIA Overhaul 3 102 A RSG 5,861 102 B RSG loose stock 3 102, O RSG 5,861 3 105B RSG UnK 105F RSG 5,56 2* G105 R.S.G. 5,86 O RSG Unk, on QHMC 2 SG & Bomb TRIMBLE TN Unk AA rebuild 2 bomb, 7 C RSG loose stock 2 bomb, A 8 RSG 3,262 _____________________________________________ 2* = Low wood that may have been cut down.
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Feb 24 2023 at 2:42pm
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3.47 original appearing. high wood oval SG over 78E. Appears to be a Trimble stock based on the nose shape
------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Feb 25 2023 at 12:20pm
Loose ? Info added
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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Feb 25 2023 at 12:26pm
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From Larry Ruth's collection. (#91) Type III (Low wood) SG Ord Stamps. stock on 3390816, unknown if original to carbine. Underwood Rebuild program stamp. RSG small upper right of slingwell A 3 5 in middle  |
Posted By: pchanu
Date Posted: Feb 27 2023 at 10:15am
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Just checked my 2 SG stocks 3 75E TRIMBLE TN Unk, AAM rebuild 2 76F Unk, but a R is visible SG 3,486 |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 05 2023 at 6:59pm
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Asa Overall shares an interesting one, a RMC I-cut with no SG in slingwell. It does however have the SG number/letter of 90E The interesting thing is it has the side cut for a rotated springtube. This would suggest earlier production stock. Did RMC send earlier and it sat around at Saginaw, or did it hang around RMC and sent later?    Unfortunately there is no longer any CC on the stock ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 07 2023 at 7:36pm
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Asa also shares a 3,381,xxx SAG oval cut highwood with SG in box and CC. The slingwell is marked Trimble TN and SG with 38 A Checking a loose stock on hand it is also a Trimble TN over S.G. with 38 B. The number fonts are different between Asa's and this one and there are clearly periods between S and G ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: jangle
Date Posted: Oct 11 2023 at 10:14am
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Original Carbine 3325xxx Type 2 stock: RSG 31 E Bomb  Original Carbine 3508xxx Type 2 stock. Very difficult to make out because of the roughness of wood fibers. Looks like: RSG Bomb 1 E  Loose Type 2 stock: RSG Bomb A 
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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 11 2023 at 11:11am
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Jangle. Thanks! Those add a new dimension to the ordnance bomb marked stocks. Did those stocks all have SG acceptance stamps? I ask because I had been speculating the bomb stamp represented approval by Army inspectors for early production and those purchased direct by the US for replacements
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 11 2023 at 11:42am
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Hmm, the loose stock looks like it may be a 9? the one above might be 81? a page or two back Matt points out a ord bomb in a picture. also a page or two back there is a RSG O, believed to be a "spares" Since there was also a RSG 0 reported that is actually a Q and has proper QHMC CC I think the O were type 2 stocks. In going with the theory that the numbers were done in an order we would see a transition of T1 stocks to T2. Who is gonna be the updater of the list, Charlie or Matt? ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Mike in NC
Date Posted: Oct 11 2023 at 2:25pm
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A few other SG stock markings to add to the list. None are original to the carbine these are now on if any. All of these have the SG in a box and crossed cannon on the right side. Type 2 (highwood oval stocks) IO 41 C Q-RMC 53 C RSG (large letters) 60 C Type 3 (low wood oval stocks) RSG (large letters) 102 E RSG (large letters, upside down) sideways Oval 103 B |
Posted By: gglithox
Date Posted: Oct 11 2023 at 5:57pm
I don't know if this counts but a Saginaw S'G' #1830210 came with this OI flaming bomb with 9 Type 1 I stock. There is no viable cartouch on right side.  |
Posted By: jangle
Date Posted: Oct 11 2023 at 7:48pm
Yes Matt, all have boxed SG and CC cartouche on right side. New2brass, I've photographed at different angles and lighting and really cannot make out anything other than what I've noted. If someone sees something different, it's fine by me.
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 8:23am
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@gglithox, another tough call. the OI and Ord bomb was a early 1943 stock Charlie's list has a 7 on a U stock followed by 7U on a ? Matt's redo list does not have just a 7, but has a U7 the U is out of the A-F we have seen, but early on could be variations???? If there was a 7 with no letter then just a 9 is possible. Hopefully a stock with CC will show up with an early number without a letter. ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 10:12am
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Dan, Look again at the first page. Charlie on one list has a 7 without letter, but manufacturer U. That might be an oops or might be deliberate. The U7 is from Ruth's WB! I don't think we know anyth9ing more about it. It looks like I'm the current keeper of the list. What I've been doing is maintaining a spreadsheet with additional columns for full serial number if known, and source of reference. It also lets us sort by number, letter, etc.
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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 11:27am
I see an A in the bottom of the loose stock. So I guess that is pretty certain I guess the question whether there is a 9 before the A or if its a bomb? Related to the bomb stamps, I have an I.R. stock purchased off of ebay with two bombs. One bomb in the slingwell, and another in the oiler slot. Unfortunately, the stock was pretty heavily sanded after it saw service as a rebuild. |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 11:46am
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Maybe. Certianly interesting enough to include in the discussion. IIRC some 1,8 carbines were completed at the Saginaw plant very early on. Maybe the butplatte will be another clue?
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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 12:06pm
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I.R. stock with bomb mentioned above. My understanding is this was a seperate contract direct with Irwin after the Saginaw contracts were ended. Further that the bomb stamp indicates US gov't acceptance of the part individually. One bomb in the slingwell, and another in the oiler slot. Unfortunately, the stock was pretty heavily sanded. There is a P on the front of the grip and remnant of an arsenal stamp on the right cheek of the stock.     |
Posted By: gglithox
Date Posted: Oct 12 2023 at 4:39pm
Here is the butt plate. No markings on side of plate. |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 13 2023 at 7:24am
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Looks like a Saginaw buttplate to me (I'm not an expert) and that would add to likelyhood its an IO stock that was at the Saginaw plant. However Inland used the same buttplate, so its also possible this was an Inland stock. Pchanu found an early Inland that also has slingwell markings. http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/inland-2676_topic6537.html#58010" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/inland-2676_topic6537.html#58010  For now I think it belongs on the list. Whether it was always married to the S'G' reciever, its probably best to be doubtful. But Larry Ruth illustrates a 1,82 narrow tang S.G. receiver in WB! but I failed to find the explanation (IIRC I've read it - just cant' find it now). Hopefully someone more knowledgable and experienced will chime in.
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Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 13 2023 at 11:15am
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Butt plate is a transitional Winchester. Saginaw was making receivers for Inland before they took over the IP contract. They started with narrow tang. The wide tang shows up in the Inland 8008xx range of SAG produced receivers. See CCNL 346-3 I would add a note of a possible on the IO with the 9 ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 14 2023 at 10:50am
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Updated list of Slingwell stamped stocks. Trying a couple of new things. * This as an image and maybe it will be easier to read. * Sorted the list by stock type first, then by stamp number, with some decisions based on the carbine serial number and stamp size. These are my guesses based on the discussion so far about possible chronology. Arguably the stock stamped bomb 1 E could be at the top of the list, etc. * Adding the column showing size and location of the stock manufacturer stamp. The smaller RSG stamp seems to be earlier, and larger stamp later.  8 A and bomb A 8 may be the same stock but recorded twice. |
Posted By: Superdort
Date Posted: Feb 18 2024 at 8:07am
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Hi, Have here A Trimble/TN Highwood stock with I think 43B or 48D in the slingwell. Stock was mounted on my QRMC Carbine. Stock is sadly sanded so no other markings.    |
Posted By: Mike in NC
Date Posted: Feb 27 2024 at 12:44pm
| One more Saginaw sling cut marking to add to the list. Highwood oval, small font RSG in upper right corner of sling cut, 32C followed by a small bomb in the bottom right corner of the sling cut. This was a loose stock. |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 01 2024 at 12:41pm
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Thank you. Those seem to fall into emerging patterns. I have to ask, why all of the Overton, RMC, and Trimble stocks at SG? Do these line up with Saginaw's highest production months? or Irwin could not produce enough early on for both Saginaw factories? There are no stock transfers to Saginaw reported in WB! or WB3. Some certainly seem to be originally intended for other primes. IO for example. But WB3 is a copy of JB Powers' chart which is labelled "Integrated" stocks. Was there a distinct procedural difference between normal trnasfers and those helped along by the Integration Committee?
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Posted By: Mike in NC
Date Posted: Mar 01 2024 at 6:03pm
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One more to add. A highwood oval stock with an ordnance bomb in about the middle of the sling cut and a "13A" and small font "RSG" at the bottom of the sling cut. Stock has the expected SG in a box and crossed cannon on the right side of the stock. This came on a 3.249 million S.G. (not S'G') but I have been told that a previous owner replaced a pot belly stock with this nice SG stock, so I don't believe it to be original to this carbine. |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 01 2024 at 7:58pm
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Was there a distinct procedural difference between normal transfers and those helped along by the Integration Committee? [/QUOTE] I'm not sure what you mean by "normal transfers." Over the decades the Carbine Club has seen plenty of evidence that the prime manufacturers and the subcontractors helped each other out to avoid the delays and bureaucracy of the Integration Committee. Presumably these "help me out and I'll help you out" transfers were initiated and coordinated with a phone call or a telegram. Every company involved in carbine manufacture were serving the same master, the Ordnance Dep't, and it was in everyone's best interest to "cooperate and graduate." And after the carbine contracts were cancelled, I doubt that any prime manufacturer or subcontractor listed these direct transfers on any documentation to be sent to the Ordnance Department or the National Archives. And we must remember that the Carbine Industry Integration Committee records found in War Baby are ONLY those that Larry Ruth found at the National Archives. It is anyone's guess how many hundreds/thousands of other transfer documentations were thrown away, lost, misplaced, destroyed at war's end. There was really no historical or national security reason why any of those CIIC transfer records were retained in the first place. Larry was lucky to find what he did! (And so are we!) Regards, mb ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Mar 03 2024 at 12:14pm
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Marty, Thanks. That addresses what I didn't understand and was asking about. So the Integration Committee typically got involved in the transfers. And the transfer lists in WB are largely from records the integration committee. I couldn't tell how much they were normally involved beyond the memo in WB about having a government inspector check the parts before shipping. - Matt
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Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 03 2024 at 1:43pm
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Say Matt and all, My understanding about the Integration Committee (my understanding only, because I cannot locate or remember the documentation that I saw decades ago - perhaps in Larry Ruth's first book, the softbound one...or perhaps in a large stack of National Archives documents (copies) that Ken Schliesmann had. In the 1970s, Ken was researching to write a book about carbines also, but Larry published his first.) Anyhow, my understanding is that the Integration Committee was the Expeditor for all carbine production. If a prime manufacturer or subcontractor had difficulties due to supply issues, raw material issues, tools and machines, labor difficulties, etc., the Committee would coordinate assistance to keep everyone's production moving. With 9 prime manufacturers and about 1000 subcontractors over the course of production, this was a HUGE task! As we would say today "There were a lot of moving parts!" In regards to the incompleteness of the lists of Integrated Parts in "War Baby," note that the dates preceded by an X were taken (by Larry) from Requests or Authorization (approval) documents....and the other dates are from actual shipping date documents. Try to reconcile the X dates and quantities of parts, with the shipping dates and quantities of parts, and we can see that many, many documents were not found by Larry. The lists published in "War Baby" have been very useful to us, but they are also very incomplete. Then, when we try to factor in the obvious sales/trading/loaning of parts directly between manufacturers and between subcontractors - bypassing the Integration Committee to avoid delay or embarrassment - we have an unknown mix of parts among factory-original carbines. Hence, collectors should resist the temptation to "correct" a part or two on a carbine that otherwise appears to be factory-original. It very well may be! Regards, mb ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: Marty Black
Date Posted: Mar 04 2024 at 11:09am
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Continuing the discussion on the Integration Committee, another possibility is that ALL parts transfers were made with Committee authorization/approval. The "undocumented" or "direct" transfers that collectors have discovered over the years MAY be Integration Committee transfers for which documentation has never been discovered. I personally think that transfers were made outside the purview of the Committee for short-notice shortages or problems. The prime manufacturers and subcontractors all faced the same challenges and served the same master (the Ordnance Dept). Although the corporate General Managers were likely strong competitors in the manufacturing industry, carbine factory production managers and others in lower management were concerned only with meeting production goals. Hence, their motivation to help each other out when needed. The more we learn, the more questions we have! Regards, mb ------------- Marty Black |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Apr 03 2024 at 6:42pm
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While adding a couple more to the spreadsheet from the Bavarian Armory page, it does look like we have some sort of chronological sequence. Maybe the stamp was added after the stock was assembled to the reciever and served as a means to track date and shift as we speculated about earlier. It also occured to me the only letter stamps so far are A through F, and 1 G. 7 letters. Days of the week ?? |
Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Apr 04 2024 at 10:19am
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Saginaw in Saginaw and Grand Rapids were the same company, the same contract. WB pages 492-493 show that combined there were 12 months of deliveries May 1943 to April 1944 The highest number it 105. weeks in the year is 52. 52 x 2 =104 which is one number off the 105. looking at the 1943 and 1944 calendars and counting the Saturdays there would be 53 weeks. PURE SPECULATION If they did bi-weekly deliveries, or maybe counts/ crating etc the A-G gets kind of off the tracks if they had 2 shifts a day this sort of fits. issues with the system that requires a little research, Saginaw location sent stuff to Grand Rapids to be finished due to needing to ramp up machine gun production. I am unclear if carbine production was halted, reduced. Did production continue after that? Grand Rapids factory did a speedy end so they can turn to injector production as a priority. Now you have to consider those days no carbines were completed at Saginaw MI and therefor absent numbers The same goes if the factory was closed for a holiday. Did they only operate two shifts? If victory shifts (second shifts) were less than a full 8 hours then we would see less of the presumed letters that were part of that shift. I am sure there are other factors that need to be considered as well. Thoughts? ------------- http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers |
Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Apr 04 2024 at 2:03pm
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Dan. It seems like one of the better possibilities to pursue investigating. A couple of sidenotes: The U 7 stock was reported in Ruth WB! but there is no additional info. U could be a C sideways or an oval 0 or some other stamp that at the time Larry or his reporter was not thinking about. I grouped the type I stocks together under the assumption these were all made, and therefore used, before any type 2 stocks. The first assumption is probably false. Correct me if I'm wrong, but its been stated that RMC continued making Type I stocks while other manufacturers were making Type 2 stocks (oval oiler slots). The second assumption, that stocks were used in the order they arrived, depends on the organization of the stock room, and how parts were moved around. Therefore its possible that (a) RMC type I stocks were transfered to SG after Irwin was delivering Type 2 stocks. (b) RMC type I stocks were transfered earlier but were in the back of the room so did not get pulled until demand on the production line was exceeding stock deliveries. In fact there is a transfer of 100 Overton and 1000 RMC stocks to S'G' in late 1942, which if not all used at Grand Rapids could have been available for Saginaw to draw on. (WBIII p. 1178) Next update to the list will be sorted in numerical sequence.
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