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Other Items Made by Prime and Subcontractors

Printed From: The Carbine Collector's Club
Category: The Club
Forum Name: General Discussion
Forum Description: Carbine Related
URL: http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3464
Printed Date: Jan 28 2023 at 2:40pm
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Topic: Other Items Made by Prime and Subcontractors
Posted By: m1a1fan
Subject: Other Items Made by Prime and Subcontractors
Date Posted: May 12 2018 at 8:27am
Before, during and after the war, prime and subcontractors made a variety of things. Hoping other members will add

Sprague and Carleton (Carbine Stocks)






Overton (Carbine Stocks)





Replies:
Posted By: James K
Date Posted: May 12 2018 at 2:01pm
Had to turn over our piano bench. It is a 1918 Charles Parker Co.


Posted By: blackfish
Date Posted: May 12 2018 at 2:27pm
A piano bench? Man, they made everything. I've got a vise made by the Charles Parker Co just after the Civil War!


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: May 12 2018 at 8:24pm
Fine looking pieces of wood. Something to keep an eye out for when attending a local auction.

Another subcontractor

Milton Bradley



Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: May 16 2018 at 9:15pm
Robert Irwin 

Irwin Seating Co.




https://www.irwinseating.com/


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: May 17 2018 at 5:26pm
Another nice example painter.

Sticking with the stock maker theme:

Hillerich & Bradsby



Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: May 25 2018 at 2:49pm
Winchester made their own stocks, so trying to stay in line with 'stock makers'.
I'll raise you a pair of roller skates..
  • https://centerofthewest.org/2014/11/29/treasures-west-winchester-roller-skates/#" rel="nofollow">   
 


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: May 25 2018 at 3:30pm
Winchester Flashlight 3 Cell "22K Copper" with Ring Hanger
Circa: 1940

Winchester 3 Cell


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: James K
Date Posted: May 25 2018 at 5:44pm
1993 Wanted to get out of Dodge so hopped a 60 ft. stay sail Ketch as Engineer to New Zealand. In a junk sale bought a Winchester 2 cell for 10 penny coin which was about 6 cents U.S. When returned 1994 after 14,000 miles under sail, gave to a friend who collects Winchester stuff. He still has it. In gun shops you could buy .22 and 9mm Parker Hale suppressors for 12.50 NZ (about $7.50 U.S.) no permit required.


Posted By: Charles
Date Posted: May 25 2018 at 5:52pm
K V Manufacturing is another company I have dealt with for many years. Among  other things, I purchased drawer slides, handles, adjustable shelf track and supports and many items used in the construction of furniture and custom cabinets.


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Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg.
29th. Divi.
4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired
Life member NRA



Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: May 25 2018 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by James K James K wrote:

1993..... In a junk sale bought a Winchester 2 cell for 10 penny coin which was about 6 cents U.S. When returned 1994 after 14,000 miles under sail, gave to a friend who collects Winchester stuff. He still has it.

JamesK,
I found a site with Winchester flashlights dating from 1922..... to I believe the mid 1950's.
If you remember what it looked like you may spot your old model.

If interested, Here's the link:

http://www.flashlightmuseum.com/flashlights_list.cfm?list_method=browse&brand=Winchester&start_record=1&end_record=40

I didn't want to go overboard and get to off topic/or over do it, but I have quite a few early Winchester fishing lures , tackle , reels, Bamboo fly rods etc to name a few. But most I don't have pictures loaded of them. Years ago tackle and pre 1935 outboard motors were my main collecting interests. I've managed to downsize that collection over the years.

Last couple hours I've been trying to find Scales made by NPM pre WWII, but no luck so far.

Cheers,

PS: Here's another WRA I like:

Winchester 2 Cell Chrome and Copper Bullet 1939

Winchester 2 Cell Chrome and Copper Bullet




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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: May 26 2018 at 4:31pm
Good stuff guys. Keep em coming. Some more.







Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: May 26 2018 at 7:06pm
Hence Wadsworth "case"

Last one got me? though Autoyre made similar items

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Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: May 26 2018 at 7:18pm
See Charles’ post above.


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: May 26 2018 at 9:12pm
Please crop if needed,
Thx,
Charlie-Painter777



1941 UEF Type Writer

Emily for Underwood Elliott Fisher Company. circa 1944  Source: https://openpics.aerobatic.io/

Image result for underwood typewriter WWII adds


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: jackp1028
Date Posted: May 26 2018 at 9:43pm
My typewriter is bigger than yours!







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JackP


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: May 26 2018 at 11:26pm
Back to stock makers,
Pedersen Mfg Co made stocks and Hand guards for Underwood, most found marked P-U in the slingwell. Hand guards were marked PEDERSEN U or just P-U.
In 1929 brothers Walther, Paul, and Albert Pedersen formed a custom golf club manufacturing company, the Pedersen Manufacturing Company, in Mount Vernon. In 1941 they moved the business to Wilton, Conn.

Charlie-Painter777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: May 30 2018 at 8:50pm


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Jun 21 2018 at 11:59am
Bruner-Ritter Co,
Made the circled or boxed in B/R Straight replacement hammers.
Known for being Jewelry makers during peace time.



Star Watch Case, Made War Time Sears.... etc

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/5600/OtherStarWatch.jpg
Wadsworth Cases, Mag Catch, Extractors... etc



And Wrigley's because our boys could shoot and chew gum at the same time.



M1A1... Your Move...

Cheers,
Charlie-Painter777





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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Jun 21 2018 at 7:07pm
Running cross corner forehand into your neck of the woods...

American Electric Heater Co.



Keeler Brass Co.


Bissel Carpet Sweeper Co.


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Jun 21 2018 at 10:59pm
Damn,
I was going to do the Bissel Sweeper... but didn't want to be a show off.

Touche'

CH-P777


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Jun 24 2018 at 2:12pm
Dayton Racquet





Read Page 3 for more about Dayton Racquet:

http://arcanumhistoricalsociety.org/OL_NL/NL_06_Q3.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://arcanumhistoricalsociety.org/OL_NL/NL_06_Q3.pdf


Posted By: painter777
Date Posted: Jun 24 2018 at 2:37pm
From the July 6, 2006 Volume 2, issue 3.
Presidents report,
 Arcanum Wayne Trail Historical Society, lnc., 123 W. George St., Arcanum, OH 45304 
http://www.arcanumhistoricalsociety.org" rel="nofollow - www.arcanumhistoricalsociety.org

This is page 3 from this report

Dayton Racquet Company Defense Work Moving to South Albright St. in Arcanum from Dayton in 1934, the Dayton Racquet Company was the only manufacturer of steel string and steel frame racquets in the world. During the years of operations; tennis, badminton, squash, racquetball, and paddle tennis racquets were manufactured. After World War ll, the sales of racquets were mostly to schools and playgrounds with nationwide distribution. In April 1942 Dayton Racquet Company was awarded a contract to manufacture the bolt for the Ml, MlAl, and M2 Carbine rifle as a subcontractor of the Inland Manufacturing, Division of General Motors in Dayton. Inland Manufacturing was the largest producer of carbine rifles during WW ll. The contract necessitated that R. B. Munday, company president; store the racquet manufacturing equipmento make room for new machinery, leased from the Cincinnati Ordinance Department. After samples of the cartridge bolts were submitted and approved in July, full production began in September with around 65 employees. Production increased with additional employees being added to operate additional shifts, with a cafeteria opened at the factory to furnish food for the workers. Arcanum's sole defense plant was awarded the Army-Navy award on July S, 1944 during an open-air ceremony at the plant. This award was given to plants where the production of war materials was excellent. The award was celebrated with a grand picnic for the plant employees and their families held at Wayne Lakes on Saturday, July 8. Prizes amounting to $200.00 were awarded for various contests, and a grand lunch was served under the "Big Top". The war effort at the plant continued with as many as 240 people employed, with work force at times spread to three shifts. ln April I 945 production was reduced to 60 percent and by August the contract was cancelled. lmmediately the plant began to reconverto the manufacture of the steel racquets. By the end of the war production the factory employees decreased from 24O to 25. E. Louis Munday became the sole owner after his brother R. B. Munday retired from the business at the end of I 945. Ted Munday, son of Louis, continued operation of the Racquet Company until December 23,1995 when the last racquet was made.


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Living Free because of those that serve.....


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Jun 24 2018 at 9:40pm
Excellent! Even better with documentation.

Still in business


Still in business


Still in business....Sort of.


Posted By: Charles
Date Posted: Jun 25 2018 at 9:06am
Don't know if they made anything for the war effort but tobacco company s did supply millions in tobacco products which was good for moral, an important aspect during a very stressful time. A good thing at the time.

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Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg.
29th. Divi.
4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired
Life member NRA



Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jul 07 2018 at 9:53pm
OK maybe not the best find but it did get my heart pumping when my wife yelled "Wayne, there's an Underwood in the next booth" while we were checking out the local antique/resale shop.



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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Charles
Date Posted: Jul 13 2018 at 8:51am
Something I knocked up for my wife. A frying pan rack made with a set of K V heavy duty full extension drawer slides. 

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Charles
Co B 1st Batl.115 Inf. Reg.
29th. Divi.
4.2 Heavy Mortar Co Retired
Life member NRA



Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Jul 13 2018 at 10:04pm
Good one Charles. Always make me smile knowing a WW2 contractor is still in business.


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jul 19 2018 at 5:32pm
Trimble made stocks for NPM.
Product trademark had a heart shape for the 'i' in the logo.
Here is a "Kiddie-Trainer. notice the odd address of Rochester 13, N.Y.





Here is a Kiddie-Bath




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Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Jul 19 2018 at 6:27pm
Great stuff! Since this thread started, have been looking for carbine related furniture. Nothing so far, but it so hard to tell what is what when most auction and estate sale pictures only show the furniture and not the tags. If they do it is usually the more valuable makers. I suppose that is half the fun.


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Dec 06 2021 at 12:24am
Ice trays made by Inland circa 1937.




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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 06 2021 at 10:10am
Re:  Rochester 13, N.Y.

My understanding is that bigger cities were divided into numbered postal zones before zip codes.  The number may have corresponded with a post office or station.   At least in Philadelphia, when zip codes were implemented, the previous numbers were converted directly. For example Philadelphia 1 became 19101.  

Someplace I have an early zip code guide with Mr. Zip on the cover promoting the use of zip codes.  I'm going to guess that its from the early 1950s.

Here's Union Carbide's address in NYC on the title page of the 1946 printing of The Oxy-Acetylene Handbook.



---------------------------------
Royal Typewriter, a manufacturer of M1A1 folding stock parts.



Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 06 2021 at 10:31am
City codes/postal district codes started in 1943 to break up larger cities. The Zone Improvement Plan (Zip Code) was in the early 60s

You got me on Linde/Union Carbide, what did they make for the carbine?


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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 06 2021 at 10:47am
Nothing directly that I know of.  I just was looking for an example of a city postal district from the 1940s.  edit. It did cross my mind that they almost certainly supplied the equipment and gas for welding the wire stocks.  Probably also for those items that were brazed.

Doing a little web searching, the Royal typewriter shown in my previous post is a Model 10, third variation, probably built in 1927.  My dad picked that one up after the war, probably in the 1950s or 60s.  He never liked the electric ones when they came along.  He punched those keys!

While we're on the Typewriter-Carbine theme, I use to own an early IBM electric typewriter found in the town dump.  It didn't take much to get working.  Probably was a model B.  Another kid in High School had a couple of them.  Funny the things we thought were interesting! 
from here
https://typewriterdatabase.com/1958-ibm-model-b.4340.typewriter


Posted By: Pro Libertate
Date Posted: Dec 07 2021 at 11:17am
This is probably not news to most of you, but I've recently started a foray into M1 helmets and was surprised to discover Inland manafactured helmet liners.











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NRA Life Member
NRA-Cerified RSO

When asked by the wife, "Just how many guns do you need?" the answer is always, "Just one more, honey... just one more!"


Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Dec 08 2021 at 5:47pm
All very cool!  I did not know, either, that Inland made helmets.

That, to me, is one of the great draws to carbines and carbine collecting.  The carbine is one of greatest examples of the collective war effort by such a variety of companies during WWII.  I hope that we would never need it, but I don’t think the effort put forth by industry during WWII could ever again be duplicated.

Just amazing.  Thanks for sharing. 


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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: m1a1fan
Date Posted: Dec 09 2021 at 8:44pm
+Raymond Mfg. Co. - Corry Pa.
Pin, Trigger Housing Retaining
Standard Products

(+) denotes added during the program.





Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Dec 10 2021 at 12:54am
Postal Stamper



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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 10 2021 at 11:02am
Every show I go to I look through the helmet liners in hopes of finding an Inland for my helmet shell

Ha! Spring chest, that is a good one.

Wayne, You got a Commercial Controls too!


I was going to post it when the "city postal code" when Matt brought it up
Notice the Rochester 2




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Posted By: SSNPingjockey
Date Posted: Dec 10 2021 at 6:24pm
I know this isn’t a helmet forum, but thought this was interesting. A Firestone-Inland?




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Chad
USN Retired


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 10 2021 at 6:47pm
WOW! I wonder if lateral support? I am sure there is a helmet forum out there, if so I wonder if they ever heard of that one?
I know GE and a few of its subsidiaries made liners. And I learned that while researching carbine related items.


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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 10 2021 at 7:44pm
USMilitaria has a Helmet sub-forum

Here's one with a liner described as Inland finished by Firestone and the photo has a the two logos overstamped.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/354282-wwii-m1-mccord-helmetfirestone-liner/#comment-2823960" rel="nofollow - https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/354282-wwii-m1-mccord-helmetfirestone-liner/#comment-2823960

In this one a person says Firestone would reweb old Inlands
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/170266-firestoneinland-liner/#comment-1296694" rel="nofollow - https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/170266-firestoneinland-liner/#comment-1296694

But this one here says Firestone took molds as part of taking over the manufacturing.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/152343-m-1-liner-makers-markings/#comment-1149828" rel="nofollow - https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/152343-m-1-liner-makers-markings/#comment-1149828



Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 30 2021 at 12:31am
We could fill pages with this company's products! 
I chose this hammer because the handle is stamped WPA; and the logo stamped on the head was used starting in 1935.


Stanley also made military items during WW2 for weapons other than just the carbines.
One that seems to be fairly common is a small combination screwdriver-punch for the 1911 and 1911A1 pistols.  


There's a summary of contracts for this tool at USmilitaria forum: http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/227753-1911a1-takedown-tool/&do=findComment&comment=1807315" rel="nofollow - https://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/227753-1911a1-takedown-tool/&do=findComment&comment=1807315
 
The ones Stanley made during WW2 were stamped with their trademark.



In a 2019 article, Walter Jacob states these were made by the Stanley’s tool division.  
He also brings to attention cleaning rods for the pistol stamped SW 1. 
He believes these were probably made by Stanley Works hardware division.
Both divisions, along with Stanley’s American Tubes Stamping Company got "E" awards in 1943.  

Stanley Works of the 1940s was the product of a merger between two companies owned by separate branches of the same family.  Stanley Rule and Level Company made tools, and Stanley Works made hardware such as hinges, sash locks, etc.  In 1920 they joined into one company, two divisions.

At that time, they came up with a new trade mark incorporating the hardware company’s S.W. in a heart, and a rectangular outline with Stanley in it.
1920-1934

Perhaps the rectangular outline came from the shape previously used in the tool company’s literature.
example from a 1914 Stanley Rule & Level Co. Catalog

In 1935 the logo was simplified to the one seen on the hammer and pistol take-down tool.

That said, it seems reasonable that they might have marked items some government only items such as the carbine magazines and pistol cleaning rods with SW.

ref:
Walter W. Jacobs "Stanley C64149 Combination Take-down Tool for the 1911 Colt .45 Pistol" The Chronicle of the Early American Industries Association.  72:2  June 2019. pages 82-83

Walter W. Jacobs "The Man Who Turned Stanley Works Around: The Story of William H. Hart" The Chronicle of the Early American Industries Association.  58:4  December 2015. pages 162-68

Stanley Tools, Catalog no. 34  [1949] 
https://archive.org/details/StanleyToolsCatalogNo.34/mode/2up



Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Dec 30 2021 at 9:31am
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:


That said, it seems reasonable that they might have marked items some government only items such as the carbine magazines and pistol cleaning rods with SW.



Wink

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/sw-magazines-not-winchester-spotters-report_topic3984.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/sw-magazines-not-winchester-spotters-report_topic3984.html


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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Dec 30 2021 at 11:31am
Thanks!
And here's a nice chronology of Stanley logos, trademarks and promotionals.
http://eaiainfo.org/2021/11/04/the-stanley-companies-pictorial-promotions-circa-1860-1960/" rel="nofollow - https://eaiainfo.org/2021/11/04/the-stanley-companies-pictorial-promotions-circa-1860-1960/


Posted By: PingCMP
Date Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 12:37pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

While we're on the Typewriter-Carbine theme, I use to own an early IBM electric typewriter found in the town dump.  It didn't take much to get working.  Probably was a model B.  Another kid in High School had a couple of them.  Funny the things we thought were interesting! 



Per War Baby!, IBM's Electric Writing Machine Division also made M1 Carbine safeties (IN marked) for NPM as well as a transfer to S'G' on page 200. Page 429 refers to S'G' use of type 3 safeties provided by IBM's Electro-matic Typewriters Division, undoubtedly synonymous with the former.

This might be a better question for a new thread, but I can't help but wonder why IBM subcontracted the safeties they used in their own carbines from Eaton Pond Co. in Springfield, Mass. instead of using their own? 


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by PingCMP PingCMP wrote:


Per War Baby!, IBM's Electric Writing Machine Division also made M1 Carbine safeties (IN marked) for NPM as well as a transfer to S'G' on page 200. Page 429 refers to S'G' use of type 3 safeties provided by IBM's Electro-matic Typewriters Division, undoubtedly synonymous with the former.

This might be a better question for a new thread, but I can't help but wonder why IBM subcontracted the safeties they used in their own carbines from Eaton Pond Co. in Springfield, Mass. instead of using their own? 


Ping, excellent question!
Look at War Baby page 476 and let me know what you come up with


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Posted By: PingCMP
Date Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Originally posted by PingCMP PingCMP wrote:


Per War Baby!, IBM's Electric Writing Machine Division also made M1 Carbine safeties (IN marked) for NPM as well as a transfer to S'G' on page 200. Page 429 refers to S'G' use of type 3 safeties provided by IBM's Electro-matic Typewriters Division, undoubtedly synonymous with the former.

This might be a better question for a new thread, but I can't help but wonder why IBM subcontracted the safeties they used in their own carbines from Eaton Pond Co. in Springfield, Mass. instead of using their own? 


Ping, excellent question!
Look at War Baby page 476 and let me know what you come up with


Yes, IBM stepped up to making extractors when Ordnance transitioned to the type 3. The transfer of extractors to Saginaw and safeties to Grand Rapids mentioned on page 200 explains why my S.G. has that W-B extractor and my S'G' an IN marked, type 3 safety. Some times we have to put 2+2 together to get our answers Smile


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 3:19pm
There is a little more to it.
Rochester was making safeties and extractors before making carbines, extractors were marked IB, IN, IQ. Safeties marked IN

Safeties for IBM carbines were marked EMB, W-B, EPB and extractors IB, IN, WB, W-B.
War Baby page 200 shows that an emergency delivery of safeties were sent from Rochester to Poughkeepsie, These were marked IN

Would the extractors supplied by Rochester to Grand Rapids (from page 200) be marked W-B?
If not how would the be marked?

*note* clarification added in last sentence.

[HIDE] See WB page 429[/HIDE]


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Posted By: ncin1911
Date Posted: Jan 05 2022 at 6:15pm
unmarked

or maybe we are talking about Grand Rapids not Saginaw? Then  I-S'G' ?


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jan 12 2022 at 12:37pm
The one that got away from Ron Dalhamer.
One of Inland's first products, a Steering wheel

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/2396/SteeringWheel.jpg




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Posted By: PingCMP
Date Posted: Jan 13 2022 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

There is a little more to it.
Rochester was making safeties and extractors before making carbines, extractors were marked IB, IN, IQ. Safeties marked IN

Safeties for IBM carbines were marked EMB, W-B, EPB and extractors IB, IN, WB, W-B.
War Baby page 200 shows that an emergency delivery of safeties were sent from Rochester to Poughkeepsie, These were marked IN

Would the extractors supplied by Rochester to Grand Rapids (from page 200) be marked W-B?
If not how would the be marked?

*note* clarification added in last sentence.

[HIDE] See WB page 429[/HIDE]


The extractor in my S.G. is marked W-B, that was likely from the transfer of the 64,000 from IBM to Saginaw that was mentioned on page 200. The extractor in my S'G' is marked W S'G', which, per WB page 428 was sourced from Wadsworth Watch Case Company of Dayton, Kentucky. The IN marked safety in my S'G' was likely from the transfer of safeties to Grand Rapids from IBM.




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Charlie


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jan 13 2022 at 1:14pm
Page 200 shows extractors from Rochester were sent to both
Saginaw, Saginaw MI
Saginaw, Grand Rapids MI

so the question still stands:
Would the extractors supplied by Rochester to Grand Rapids or Saginaw plants (from page 200) be marked W-B?

The answer is no, Rochester made extractors for IBM with the IB marking and according to page 200 Rochester sent an emergency delivery to Poughkeepsie. These would be marked IN

W-B extractors were made by Wadsworth Watch Case Co for IBM at Poughkeepsie. So your W-B extractor on your S.G. would not have anything to do with the Rochester contract extractors on page 200.

IBM Poughkeepsie did send extractors to Grand Rapids. If they sent them to the Saginaw plant as well that would be a transfer that we do not know about.
Could Grand rapids have sent some to Saginaw? Possibly.
Could your extractor have been replaced? Possibly.

Like always, if the carbine appears to be original and there is a part or two out of place, do not correct it.

Hope that helps!



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Posted By: Louis Losi
Date Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 12:59pm
Gunbroker is listing an auction for an Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine magazine, still in the original packaging. Did Irwin-Pedersen manufacture magazines or did a subcontractor manufacture them for Irwin-Pedersen? The seller's starting bid is $175.00 with no bidders. Is the magazine worth $175.00?


https://www.gunbroker.com/item/922467020" rel="nofollow - WW2 mint unissued Irwin Pedersen M1 Carbine mag - Rifle Magazines & Rifle Clips at GunBroker.com : 922467020



Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

 Did Irwin-Pedersen manufacture magazines or did a subcontractor manufacture them for Irwin-Pedersen? 

All of the Prime Manufacturers subcontracted their magazines. Judging by that packaging my bet would be the marking on the magazine itself is actually K-S'G'. J&G sales sold a bunch of them a couple years ago for around $30. 


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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 1:53pm
That magazine has been listed for a while, due to the price.

No prime contractor produced magazines. They were contracted for magazines to go with the carbines as well as spares(usually 10% ?).
All the magazines were all subcontracted out.
the government also had direct contracts with some of the companies that made magazines.

CCNL 206-7. 202-1, and 384-15 have information on the markings of parts and how ordnance recommend parts to be marked, but that ordnance would hold the prime contractor responsible.
I recapped this info http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/underwood-subcontractors-az_topic5317.html" rel="nofollow - here .
 

I have never heard of an IP magazine coming out of one of those packages. This was in one of the newsletters as well. But never say never.
It would seem that IP had ordered the wraps and S'G' subcontracted magazines were the only thing reported in them.

Unfortunately the price is driven by people wanting that "Holy Grail" IP carbine and parts.

On the note of spares or contract magazines, QHMC did have a 6-44 contract for 70,000 dollars worth of magazines. This is after carbine production ended for them.
It is unclear if they had magazines left over that ordnance was willing to accept, or just another contract. QHMC had a few contracts after their carbine production ceased.

There are QHMC marked magazine wrappers. It would be interesting to see if all of the magazines in those wrappings are the same marking.


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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: Louis Losi
Date Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:

Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

 Did Irwin-Pedersen manufacture magazines or did a subcontractor manufacture them for Irwin-Pedersen? 

All of the Prime Manufacturers subcontracted their magazines. Judging by that packaging my bet would be the marking on the magazine itself is actually K-S'G'. J&G sales sold a bunch of them a couple years ago for around $30. 

Before Saginaw Gear took over production of M1 carbines at the Irwin-Pedersen facilities, how were magazines marked when Irwin-Pedersen was producing M1 carbines? Is it possible the pictured packaging contains a magazine produced during Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine production?


Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 3:18pm
Anything is possible, but like Dan mentioned above all the magazine that I have seen in that particular packaging have been marked K-S'G'. 
Some actual IP magazine markings would be IP-I, UP, I-IP, K-IP.


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Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Jan 30 2022 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Louis Losi Louis Losi wrote:

Is it possible the pictured packaging contains a magazine produced during Irwin-Pedersen M1 carbine production?


Possible, but based on reports, unlikely. As I said above, Never say never.

Contemplate this, No carbines were accepted by ordnance and this lead to the cancellation of their contract and it being handed over to Steering Gear. Each carbine would have been shipped with a magazine. Ten carbines to a crate, so 10 mag to the same crate.
They would have had to provide spare parts as per contract, so parts would exceed carbines.

Steering gear came in, gauged the parts and salvaged what they could. Assembled into carbines and shipped out the carbines with mags (and slings/oilers).

Early in S'G' deliveries we see more IP marked pars but in a few months the S'G' parts show up.
I suspect the IP mags went out the door with the carbines.

Though the Saginaw factory was producing receivers for Inland, they were not producing complete carbines yet.
The two factories used by Steering gear to produce carbines was one contract. See CCNL 357.
In that newsletter I believe it points out that the first deliveries of S.G. carbines was out of the Grand Rapids facility.
It may be possible that both factories used the magazines on hand to get carbines out the door until the subcontractors were secured and makings changes were made.

The magazines Wayne pointed out were made by Union Hardware. International Silver, and Keeler Brass.
Grand rapids did not subcontract International Silver. Saginaw did not subcontract Union Hardware. Both had additional magazines made by other subcontractors



This is all speculation on my part.

All magazines were not wrapped. We have observed 100 magazines packed in a cardboard box wrapped. We have also seen 100 magazines in the cardboard box not wrapped.
Of those wrapped the packaging may be unmarked.




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http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/club-assistance-saginaw-receivers_topic4716.html" rel="nofollow - Club Survey Saginaw Receivers


Posted By: PingCMP
Date Posted: Jan 31 2022 at 10:30pm
Several factors combine to convince me that although undocumented, the W-B extractor is original to my S.G.. The story, which explained the hunting modifications, combined with price paid & the fact everything else matches up perfectly leads me to believe that Grand Rapids ran some extractors down to Saginaw because they were running short. That, and a helpful member from a forum years ago who was affiliated with some Saginaw club told me it was original when I first mentioned buying it.
Thanks for all your input on this Dan, I'm going to rely on you a little more going forward with oddball parts I'm seeing on other carbines I'm doing data sheets on.

Regards . . .
                Charlie



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Charlie


Posted By: Smokpole
Date Posted: Feb 01 2022 at 8:21pm
We all know that there are still numerous undocumented parts transfers from one company to another to keep the lines running. So an oddball part in an otherwise all correct carbine is entirely possible and possibly correct/original. That's why we say, don't be in a hurry to change a single seemingly incorrect part. It might just be original.

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OGCA Life member
NRA Life member
Ashtabula Rod and Gun Life member


Posted By: PingCMP
Date Posted: Feb 01 2022 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by Smokpole Smokpole wrote:

We all know that there are still numerous undocumented parts transfers from one company to another to keep the lines running. So an oddball part in an otherwise all correct carbine is entirely possible and possibly correct/original. That's why we say, don't be in a hurry to change a single seemingly incorrect part. It might just be original.


Yes, and I'm going to lay a few more examples of what I've encountered in my carbine collecting adventures. Stay tuned!

Charlie


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Charlie


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jun 19 2022 at 3:00pm
Cleaning up the workbench and was delighted to notice the Seymour Smith & Son logo on the spokeshave's blade.

 


Some similar, probably earlier, spokeshaves made by https://archive.org/details/SeymourSmithAndSon1920/mode/2upth%20digitized%20page%20of%20the%201920%20catalog%20of%20John%20H.%20Graham%20&%20Co.%20at%20archive.org" rel="nofollow - Seymour Smith & Son shown in  the 1920 catalog of John H. Graham & Co. (archive.org )

(Manufactured replacement magazines)
 

Facilities still extant and apparently available.
http://connecticutmills.org/find/details/seymour-smith-sons-and-co" rel="nofollow - https://connecticutmills.org/find/details/seymour-smith-sons-and-co





Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Jul 18 2022 at 10:22am
J. L. Clark
from their current website (2022)
Perhaps their best known product today?

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/uploads/5600/OtherJCL1.jpg


One of their first lithographed tinned cans


And a fairly obscure one with their logo on the the bottom.

from  https://twinpeaksblog.com/2020/10/10/twin-peaks-prop-sheriff-trumans-us-president-trash-can/" rel="nofollow - https://twinpeaksblog.com/2020/10/10/twin-peaks-prop-sheriff-trumans-us-president-trash-can/



Posted By: W5USMC
Date Posted: Jul 18 2022 at 10:49am
Good stuff Matt. Here is one I found awhile back.




-------------
Wayne
USMC Retired
NRA Life Member


Posted By: jim77cg
Date Posted: Oct 17 2022 at 1:11am

Last night came across this product advertisement from Trimble Nurseryland Furniture, Rochester NY.  


Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 26 2022 at 7:18pm
That's great Jim.  If I came across that coop, doubt I'd figure out it was intended for human babies sun tan!

Broken link above in the J.L.Clark post should show Altoid boxes from Clark's current website.  http://jlclark.com/" rel="nofollow - https://jlclark.com/

Here's a 1962 newspaper clipping with a history of the Clark's beginings.
http://history.rockfordpubliclibrary.org/localhistory/?p=66767&" rel="nofollow - https://history.rockfordpubliclibrary.org/localhistory/?p=66767&

and a 1917 view of their Rockford Ill. building
http://history.rockfordpubliclibrary.org/localhistory/?p=27574" rel="nofollow - https://history.rockfordpubliclibrary.org/localhistory/?p=27574







Posted By: New2brass
Date Posted: Oct 27 2022 at 3:19pm
Fixed one picture.
Do you know what the other was?


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Posted By: Matt_X
Date Posted: Oct 27 2022 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Fixed one picture.
Do you know what the other was?


Sorry. I don't. :(
I just tried looking through the waybackmachine for JL Clark but not finding it.



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