Newsworthy Items - Church Magazine Update

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November 2017-F

Church Magazine Update

Carbine Club Newsletter issue #265 (Nov 1998) contains an excellent five page article by Larry Horner on magazine markings. This article included information on what has come to be known as the "Church" magazine. As a lead in to what follows here's Larry's short article on this magazine.

"CHURCH" MAGAZINES

"The magazines with the line drawing of what appears to be a church with a steeple were made in West Germany. These welded angle cut magazines are very similar to US Military issue but have a parkerized finish. I bought several boxes from a dealer at the Houston gun show in late 1993. The unmarked cardboard (not corrugated) boxes contained ten unwrapped magazines each. The boxes were sealed with cellophane tape that had turned yellow and was coming loose. Inside each box was a slip of paper that displayed a lot number, inspector's initials, and WEST GERMANY. I have misplaced the tags, but I am confident the magazines are in fact of West German origin."

During my research on the carbines used by the police and self defense forces of West Germany and Austria I came into possession of several of these magazines. I had received information from several sources who indicated they had also purchased these magazines from a company in Texas in the 1990's. They confirmed Larry's information on the boxes having no markings but contained a paper slip indicating the magazines were made in West Germany.

I received information from separate sources the church logo has also been seen on cartridge links of an ammo belt. The belts were used by the German Bundeswehr with the West German M3 machinegun manufactured post WWII by Rheinmetall Waffe Munition GmbH in Düsseldorf. It is believed the company who made belt links with the church logo was a subcontractor for Rheinmetall.

In July 2017 a seller on the German equivalent of Gunbroker, EGun.de, listed a box of new old stock cartridge links for caliber 7.62 x 51mm. The listing did not show if the links had markings but on the outside of the box was the same church logo

NATO Stock Number 1305-12-124-5709
Cartridge Belt, DM1, for 250 cartridges 7.62 x 51
1 Piece
WM1 6b/02/11180/0001/5
Lot Number 10
Hein. Hülter Jr., Iserlohn
C-K9-III-x-65

The number 12 within the NATO stock number identifies the item was for use by Germany. The sequence with WM is believed to be the contract number. The date of manufacturer is believed to be 1965. The current NATO stock system indicates this part has been replaced. The supply sources still on record are various German military logistics supply agencies.

Hein. Hülter Jr. in Iserlohn was a metal factory founded in 1890 (magazine advertisement sold on EBay Germany from unknown German magazine in 1929). Iserlohn is located approximately 90 miles east of Düsseldorf in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany.

The current German Company Registry shows no records for the company. Heinrich Hülter, Jr. in Iserlohn has been the assignee of a number of patents over the years with the last application filed in 1969 and published in 1972. The patents include a number of innovations for belt feeding mechanisms.

The church logo used by Heinrich Hülter, Jr. could not be located in the European trademark database. The church depicted is similar in appearance to several churches in the vicinity of Düsseldorf but may have been a church in Iserlohn before it burned down and has since been reconstructed using a different architectural design.

The magazines observed to date have all been 30 round magazines for the .30 caliber carbines.

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No, 30 round magazines came in those boxes. "Jay Scott Clips" which were actually magazines, had several different markings such as "Made in USA" "Jay Scott" and "M2". Think they also used some markings that mimicked USGI markings.

The Jay Scott marketed magazines were made by Tony Scherer which is known for making gun grips.

There were 9 different markings that I know of.

Some locations had restrictions on magazine capacity and they cut down and marketed many of these magazines. They were in a smaller box marked Jay Scott

The 30 round box held one magazine and no room for a stripper clip.

Dan, has it ever been known for a Church mag to come in a "jay scott" box?

nope, and the ones on auction are not consistent with the Jay Scott mags.

Someone had the boxes and put the church mags with them

In CCNL 265 Nov 1998 Larry Horner interviewed Mr. Scherer

In 1963 the NRA was releasing thousands of carbines without magazines. You could buy a USGI 15 round magazine for 10 cents. The 30 round magazines were selling for $3. Scherer saw an opportunity here and had 30 round magazines made. He was selling them 65 cents each if you were buying 1000.

The Tony Scherer magazines had 8 known codes as well as an unmarked. The codes copying USGI magazines were early production and then he was producing unmarked magazines until some import magazines showed up unmarked. This is when he switched to the Made in USA marking

Somewhere in the mix Jay Scott contracted Scherer to make magazines with his name on them.

All of the Scherer magazines have the square cut on the back. If you look at the pictures in this article you will see the church magazines had a angled cut. The Church mags are noticeably heavier than the Scherer magazines

So I would think The Jay Scott magazines in the box were marked Jay Scott

I think the church mags showed up in the early 90s.

so do I think its plausible that Jay Scott bought surplus mags and sold them in his boxes? I find this unlikely as he had his name put on the ones he was selling rather than just reselling the other magazines.

Here you go thirtyround.

Rebel92 wrote:

Was dachau-munchen not a concentration sub-camp??

Interesting question.

There are two München sub-camps listed for Dachau.

Schwester Pia's https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/muenchen-schwabing" rel="nofollow - München-Schwabing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agfa-Commando" rel="nofollow - Agfa-Commando at München-Giesing

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erma_Werke" rel="nofollow - the information on Wikopedia , the reformed post-war ERMA, ERMA-Werke, set up in Dachau around 1952. So the address does not seem to be related to the concentration camp or its atrocities.

(Nazi era ERMA had used forced labor at its facilities in Erfurt.)

carbinekid wrote:

I saved these photos a year or two ago and meant to post them sooner. The mag sold on gunbroker. Evidently I didn’t save pictures of the mag itself, but I’m 99% certain it was the standard parkerized finish and church marked. If it had been something different I would have saved pictures of that too.

That auction started at $250. Eventually it came down on relists, but went for more than expected.

There were no pictures of the magazine. Even though the packaging was opened the seller did not want to pull it out to check to see if it was marked.

As it happens one of our members saw this exact magazine in the sellers shop, same story, he would not allow it to be pulled out to check the marking.

One of our members bought that magazine or it may have been another another in the same packaging. I asked they share the marking and construction features of that magazine. The pictures never came.

So this firmly remains in unknown until one shows up sealed in wrap and can be verified.

Also to add, it is believed that it is from Iserlohn in West Germany via the first page.

Isn't Munich in the south?

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