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New to Me Inland- Questions

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35 Whelen View Drop Down
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    Posted: Oct 27 2020 at 9:10pm
I recently picked up another Inland because, well, I have a problem and can't seem to stop buying these little rifles. Everything but the stock is in remarkably good condition, and the stock isn't that bad. 

  

 Anyhow, It has no import mark and seems to be comprised of mostly Inland parts. It's my understanding that Inland produced a limited number of the parts that make up a carbine. I think I can account for seven, but haven't disassembled the trigger group yet. 
  

   

     

  

      

  

    

  If the trigger, sear and recoil plate happen to not be Inland, would it add enough to the value of the rifle to switch these out for Inland parts to justify the cost?

 Thanks in advance for any help.

  

 

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 7:13am
Congrats it is a nice looking rifle. As a rebuild with the later features I would just leave the non-Inland parts in place. IMO it will not increase the value. It's a slippery slope correcting, e.g. your type 2 slide is too early for your serial. It looks like a great rifle as-is.
Nice Brown-Lipe-Chapin barrel.
Note the N14 bolts have had problems with cracking. If you Google it you'll see a number of reports with this specific code
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 8:17am
GotSnl thanks so much,  that is exactly the type info I was seeking. I bought it with the intent of selling it, but then I shot it and it is hands-down the most accurate carbine of my little bunch.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 9:12am
I still say the N14 bolts cracking my be over hype. If they were so prone to cracking then how are they still around after 75 years? Do they have a lifespan that now in the past decade we are seeing them finally crack?

So we have reports of what? a dozen cracked bolts, out of them how many were N 14?
there were over 6 million carbines made and there was a requirement of spares
so what are we looking at, a .00002 percent sample?
Hardly a scientific study. More like how rumors start and stick.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 10:22am
Dan, the N14 bolt cracking issue may very well be just hype, but just in the thread linked below there is enough info to keep me from shooting with one. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 10:35am
If you have ever had a NPM crack and found other’s that did, all of them might become suspect to you. They are to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 10:53am
Here's how I look at it, overall I have not seen many reports of cracked bolts from other manufacturers or NPM codes over the years that were not attributed to other issues on the rifle. A couple? But NPM N14 has shown up disproportionally across a number of different forums (even if it's only a few dozen). Not everyone reports such problems on a searchable forum either, and the amount of use these rifles get is much less than when they were in military service.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by floydthecat floydthecat wrote:

If you have ever had a NPM crack and found other’s that did, all of them might become suspect to you. They are to me.


Finding suspect does not make it a fact! Same can be said with any other specific part that had a problem. You seek it out and find others with the same part and find them does not make it a fact. You started with an answer and backed into a question.

Not directing it at anyone, but...
We should let people know that something is an opinion and not state it as a fact

Originally posted by GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 wrote:

Here's how I look at it, overall I have not seen many reports of cracked bolts from other manufacturers or NPM codes over the years that were not attributed to other issues on the rifle. A couple? But NPM N14 has shown up disproportionally across a number of different forums (even if it's only a few dozen). Not everyone reports such problems on a searchable forum either, and the amount of use these rifles get is much less than when they were in military service.

When you say broken bolt not attributed to the carbine, you have to ask if the person is qualified in checking a receiver.  I suspect a great many are not.
Define disproportionately, 5 out of 12? 7 out of 20? Just how many broken bolts are we talking about?
again I suspect the sample size is two small!
Consider that many visit different forums and use different user names. That gives additional false positives.
These rifles were used all over, and well used. Now in civilian hands are breaking. Sorry it does not make sense.
The great thing about carbines was that almost every part was marked so that Ordnance could back track who was making defective parts. NPM having the number would further refine finding faulty bolts. I would think the rebuild criteria would have spelled out to discard said N14 bolts if it was a reoccurring issue.

I also suspect that because an individual had a bolt crack that they would remember the several threads of the same type broken bolt vs the total umber of broken bolts.
Has anyone taken the time to reach out and ask across the forums who has N14 bolts that shoots regularly and had issues? I suspect that you would get more responses to the negative than reports broken bolts. Would that mean they are disproportionately less prone to cracking?
I would call the same problem with small sample size.

Bottom line it is spreading of rumor with very little fact to back it up.
The club has long tried dispelling incorrect information, but it seems that rumors stick better than facts.

So here is a project for someone. Go into it with an open mind and instead of searching N14 bolts search fro broken M1 carbine bolt
Start a spreadsheet and include the User name, type of bolt, markings, etc. Add if it can be confirmed no receiver issues as well if there are receiver issues or unknown.
Make note and collect photographic proof.
You would have to discount hearsay and brothers uncles friends said.

Then we can see if in in fact there is a pattern.

Edit to add: I have several broken bolts that I reached out to obtain, Just one of them is a N14.
Though I find it interesting that several have been reported I have also looked for and seen many other bolts reported. With that I have no reason to feel the N14 is somehow more common.
But I am open to anything to the contrary.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote floydthecat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 2:19pm
Human nature. Get burned with a bad car might make one not want to purchase that brand again. Get jilted by a red-head And one might choose a blonde, or brunette next time. With me it seems to be first names. I won’t mention the name for fear of hurting someones feelings, but every time I become involved with anybody by a certain name, something bad always happens. I just avoid anybody tagged with that certain name.😁 
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Edited by firstflabn - May 23 2021 at 10:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

When you say broken bolt not attributed to the carbine, you have to ask if the person is qualified in checking a receiver.  I suspect a great many are not.
 
These rifles were used all over, and well used. Now in civilian hands are breaking. Sorry it does not make sense.
The great thing about carbines was that almost every part was marked so that Ordnance could back track who was making defective parts. NPM having the number would further refine finding faulty bolts. I would think the rebuild criteria would have spelled out to discard said N14 bolts if it was a reoccurring issue.
 

I've seen 2 cracked N14 bolts. 1 was mine the other I noticed on a fellow rifle club members carbine before he shot it. We discussed potential reasons and I left.
After posting about it I heard from others with cracked / broken lug N14 bolts. A google search brought up more N14 bolts and on occasion I'd run across cracked ones that owners were trying to auction.
But I'd see both flat and round bolts by most every maker in pictures and different forum posts.

I've read from 2 well known qualified Carbine gunsmiths that they had never seen a USGI bolt that was below or above the hardness spec that were in service.
I believe the Bolt assembly to be the weak link on the M1 carbine.
As Dan stated these rifles have seen a lot of use. During US and other countries service in multiple conflicts. In US possession they were inspected, repaired and upgraded as required by skilled Armorers. I can't say to what extent for the other countries that used them. I believe if during all of this service time if there was a issue with N14 bolts we would have heard about it. Similar to Herlo barrels. I understand during original manufacture that parts not passing inspection because of being out of specs were not accepted by US Ordnance.

Today most carbines are in civilian hands. Some see heavier use than others. You have to wonder how many current owners use gunsmiths to inspect and service them and how qualified the gunsmith may be when it comes to these older service rifles. And how qualified is the private owner who inspects and services his own.

Over the years how many parts have been swapped? Is this the 5th or 10th bolt put in it?
Not knowing this mechanical history can hide previous problems that may not be caught by the current owner. I find many on auction sites with strategic pictures to hide the chipped left locking lug shoulder or worn out Op slide rails.

It leaves you guessing at why a bolt cracked or busted off a lug. Was it metal fatigue, worn out Op slide that keeps jumping out of the track, lack of lube, headspace, powder load, burrs on the rails, bulged receiver, .... etc. Anything that can cause a momentary binding on the Op slide can lead to a bolt issue, among other issues.

The point I'm crawling to IMO is the bolt assembly be it flat or round is the weak link. That BIG RIGHT LUG isn't as strong as you may think it is. Look closely at the holes drilled for the Plunger and spring, look at the hole drilled thru the top for the Extractor stem, the holes on the face for the Ejector and Firing pin. Don't let that little bit of extra web on the bottom lead you to believe it's indestructible.

Clean your carbine to the extreme and add no oil or grease before you inspect everything. Pull the Op slide, guide spring rod and spring and put your bolt in with no lube. Tip the carbine up then slowly downward to see if the bolt travels smoothly. You can also do this with just the Op slide engaged but with no guide rod or spring. Let the weight of the slide help the bolt glide forward and back. Your looking and listening for any interruption that hinders smooth travel. Like burrs on the slide rails or bolt rails.
Feel them for burrs and address then if found. Look for burrs on the inside of the slides cam cut or on either bolt lug. Inspect the left and right locking shoulders on the receivers, looking for burrs or chipped metal. This is the short list there is more to look for, ask where, how or look it up.

Also when it comes to oil use it lightly where needed and use light viscosity grease sparingly. I see pictures of so many carbines caked with more grease than I used on the Excavator this morning. This 'Over greasing' especially in cold weather will hinder smooth action and can act as a dirt, grime and unspent powder catch all. They came with a oiler tube with a dip stick for spot oiling not a grease gun. And use a light viscosity grease, I can't over emphasize that enough.

I'm leery of N14 bolts because of the 2 I seen cracked firsthand.
But I've seen many posts and pictures of cracked and or busted right bolt lugs from most every maker. Again both flat and round.
But you so often read posts about 'Finding a round bolt for my carbine' because flat bolts right lugs will crack / break.
So often reading that I question if many owners really know what to look for as far as existing problems to why their lugs are breaking.

I just keep in mind that the (IMO) M1 carbine bolt assembly is the weak link.

VR,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 7:25pm
Apologies I did not intend to spread rumors and misinformation. Yes, the comment was anecdotal and the sample size is small and not in a control group. It is based on a small number of reports I read over the years while recreationally participating in forums including this one.

So here's my updated comment: @OP - go shoot the hell out of that bolt and let us know if it cracks!

Sorry, it's been a long day. Happy collecting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 35 Whelen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by GotSnlB28 GotSnlB28 wrote:

Apologies I did not intend to spread rumors and misinformation. Yes, the comment was anecdotal and the sample size is small and not in a control group. It is based on a small number of reports I read over the years while recreationally participating in forums including this one.

So here's my updated comment: @OP - go shoot the hell out of that bolt and let us know if it cracks!

Sorry, it's been a long day. Happy collecting.

 The days are getting short, so my time to shoot after work is less and less. But the day I received the little rifle, like all the others before it, I went straight to the shooting bench to get it halfway sighted in. I only fired a couple of three shot groups at 100 yds., but I must say I was quite impressed! 

 The first group was on the steel, 4" high and a good 8" - 9" right. I made a windage correction and aimed at the bottom of the paper target. Still 4" high and a little too much left adjustment, but both groups are under 2"! I don't recall if the load was PPU factory or an equivalent handload.

  

 This weekend I'll probably shoot it a little more to see if I can repeat those groups. Oh...and I'll try to remember to watch for cracks in the bolt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2020 at 8:26pm
You didn't have the barrel warmed up yet.
And shooting that tight of groups? Very Nice.
Accurate and a really nice looking Carbine.

Thx for sharing your 1st outing with it.

Ch-P777 
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