The Carbine Collectors Club

Click on the image above to learn more about the M1 Carbine


Forum Home Forum Home > The Club > Safety/ Accuracy/Shooting/Ammunition/Care and Maintenance
  New Posts New Posts
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login


Help with Front Sight loose and clocked

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Matt_X View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Nov 10 2020
Location: Phila, Penn
Status: Offline
Points: 766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help with Front Sight loose and clocked
    Posted: Aug 30 2021 at 12:27pm
The front sight on my SG is alittle lose.  The play is left-right and appears to be in the key or keyway.
The whole sight also appears to be clocked slightly left, so instead of standing straight up, it looks more like 11:30.    It looks to me this is in the keyway of the sight itself. 

Are there ways to correct the offset, such as offset keys?
And should I be looking for a new key and pin, or can the key be upset and reused?

The front sight has almost certainly been removed before.
Back to Top
DonFlynn View Drop Down
Grunt
Grunt


Joined: Jan 27 2019
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 580
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 30 2021 at 12:33pm
I would say you'll have to replace the key. I had a similar problem with my Plainfield last year.

The good news is you can do it without a front sight removal tool. I've done it twice now on 2 Carbines.


I recommend having someone hold the Carbine while you use the punch. I tried doing it solo the 2nd time and got a very small nick on my barrel where the punch slipped while I was putting it on. 

I also used Lock tight both times when I installed the new front sights, I figured every little bit helps
Back to Top
Matt_X View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Nov 10 2020
Location: Phila, Penn
Status: Offline
Points: 766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 30 2021 at 2:52pm
Thanks Don,
I think I could do the removal.

Here's a couple photos to illustrate the clocking I'm seeing.  


And maybe these parallel lines on the photo show how it looks to me.


Maybe the lines make it a little exaggerated but thats what I'm seeing.
Which would explain the centers of my shot groups being to the right.

I guess the only way to know is to take it off and measure the key and keyways.





Back to Top
DonFlynn View Drop Down
Grunt
Grunt


Joined: Jan 27 2019
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 580
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonFlynn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 30 2021 at 9:36pm
Looks loose to me
Back to Top
New2brass View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

Joined: Nov 29 2015
Location: CT
Status: Offline
Points: 4627
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 30 2021 at 10:45pm
there is a such thing as an offset key in the machinists world. You might want to look at McMaster Carr and MSC if that is what is needed.
However I would first assess the situation by taking the sight off and examining the key, sight and barrel to see what is causing the play.

Some of the commercial manufacturers salvaged scraped barrels by joining  pieces. Usually these are turned down 1903 barrels put into a carbine rear section.
I have seen one that was a rockola front half of the barrel and the barrel flat was clearly an Inland. What made me look closer was the front sight was slightly off. It was so well machined that you could barely notice that there was a joint in the barrel. the lands and grooved matched up perfectly with a fine gap where the two halves met up
Back to Top
shadycon View Drop Down
On Point
On Point


Joined: Mar 16 2016
Location: NRV, Va.
Status: Offline
Points: 145
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shadycon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2021 at 7:58am
Use a brass punch to remove. Looks like a steel punch was used in the past. Find your problem, then it can be fixed properly.
M1's are FUN!!!
TSMG's are more FUN!!!
Back to Top
GotSnlB28 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: WI
Status: Offline
Points: 892
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2021 at 8:23am
Sight keys are expendable items, they get deformed once the pin is driven in. I would at least find a different key.

The front sight puller does the job best, I have one made by Matrix. But a hardwood wedge block also works. Less chance of scratching the barrel with the puller.

I can remember one milled front sight I had which the blade appeared to be machined very slightly canted.

I would try to find a sight which fits tightly on the barrel. Someone worked hard from the rear of the sight to get it off a barrel before which may be why it's loose on your barrel. Another option is to use retaining compound such as Locktite 620 which is designed to fill such gaps.
Back to Top
1st M1 88 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point


Joined: Aug 26 2016
Location: illinois
Status: Offline
Points: 278
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1st M1 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2021 at 10:57am
Don't forget to check and see if the barrel alignment mark is matched to the mark on the receiver.  
Back to Top
Matt_X View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Nov 10 2020
Location: Phila, Penn
Status: Offline
Points: 766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2021 at 12:51pm
I appreciate all of the help and tips. 
The matrix tools are priced such I think the time saved on the pulling will be worth it.
I *think* this is the original sight on this carbine but has been banged about a bit.  Probably when the replica barrel band was installed. 
The barrel alignment marks are touching each although it looked like its a hair off.  Maybe there's evidence its been mucked with that I'm not seeing.  My understanding from an older post on the forum is the alignment mark was to get it close.  I'll take a photo later so you guys can see if it looks too far off. 

Brass punch is a good idea -don't think I have one.  I was actually thinking if the pin is resistant to adapt the matrix rear sight jig  by drilling a hardwood block, then cut and shape it to support the front sight.   I'll still need a punch or a pin to mount on the screw tip.


Back to Top
Quietus View Drop Down
Recruit
Recruit


Joined: Aug 10 2019
Location: north Wyoming
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quietus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug 31 2021 at 4:06pm
Brass punches:   If you live in the old America, go to a local welding shop and tell them what you want.  Brass welding rod is generally sold in 3' or so lengths but they may take pity with your story and cut you off a 4" chunk for free.  Besides getting some eighth-to-quarter inch chunks, a home hobbyist will eventually want some half inch diameter chunks to use as drifts.  Small diameters bend.  All diameters get beat up and need occasional dressing, both for safety and to fit the face to the job.  
Back to Top
Matt_X View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Nov 10 2020
Location: Phila, Penn
Status: Offline
Points: 766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 01 2021 at 1:23pm
I do have brazing rods.  Thanks for the tip,

Here's a couple photos of the alignment marks.


Close up.

Back to Top
1st M1 88 View Drop Down
On Point
On Point


Joined: Aug 26 2016
Location: illinois
Status: Offline
Points: 278
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 1st M1 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 01 2021 at 1:31pm
They look fine to me.  
Back to Top
Matt_X View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Nov 10 2020
Location: Phila, Penn
Status: Offline
Points: 766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 9:58am
Update:
The key could tell some stories about what this carbine has been through!

Key on the right is a newly made replacement (from Numrich)
Pin on top is also from Numrich, new old stock??  or newly made ??
 It seemed to be slightly larger diameter than the blued one (below) removed from the gun.



The new key just needed a little encouragement into the barrel keyway.  
I reused the blued pin.  The sight may come off again for a correct barrel band at some point.
Back to Top
Matt_X View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Nov 10 2020
Location: Phila, Penn
Status: Offline
Points: 766
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 11:57am
Correction?  According to the packing list that front sight pin is used.  If so it was removed very nicely and/or refinished.  No dings or marks on either end.
Back to Top
GotSnlB28 View Drop Down
Hard Corps
Hard Corps
Avatar

Joined: Jan 01 2016
Location: WI
Status: Offline
Points: 892
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote GotSnlB28 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 23 2021 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

Correction?  According to the packing list that front sight pin is used.  If so it was removed very nicely and/or refinished.  No dings or marks on either end.


The Numrich descriptions aren't always accurate as you observed. I've ordered that part and received both used and what appear to be NOS pins. Same with other parts. I have sent things back before that were not accurately described (but not small parts like a pin).
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.