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Early IBM

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Medic314/79 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Early IBM
    Posted: Nov 30 2021 at 2:46pm
Looking at my carbine. Serial 3728701. all parts seem to be correct for an early IBM.
10-43 IBM barrel, has flat crown. all parts inside an out seem to be correct for this.
a beech high wall stock with only "S&C" stamped in sling recess.
I am positive all parts are correct for this with the exception of the type 1 front band,
and the flip sights.

they are marked "IN B" but look nothing like others I've seen. the "I,and N" are spaced 
farther part than others I've seen, and more deeply struck. Also, the chisel staking is not aligned against the sight base like this was added in place of another sight.

I took out the flip parts to see if the receiver had old staking for an adjustable sight. clean, only the four chisel marks on receiver.
Perhaps the sights were adjusted but not removed? But they don't look legit. compared to authentic sights I've seen.
I was thinking this was a carbine with adjustable sight and newer front band added later in life.
but I don't know how to determine if the type one band is a repro or not.
it has no marks, no tool scrapes or grinding marks, the weld scars are not prominent and there are only 2 of these.
Carbine has correct "SIB" front sight.


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Medic314/79 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 03 2021 at 5:17pm
Has anyone seen an IBM flip sight marked like this? with the letter separation?
is it fake? I've only seen two later known original IBM's with flip sights, one had different letter spacing and not struck so deep,
 and the other was a different manufacturer of the sight.
My front band appears to be genuine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 03 2021 at 5:37pm
Have not seen an IBM flip with that spacing, seems that there are a lot of fake IBM flips out there. Page down on the link below for a picture of a legit IN B flip.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 2:12pm
Medic,
Can we get some other views?

I know little about this subject but wonder if its possible the right side stamp was added to an unmarked base.

If the carbine later got an adjustable sight and it was staked, those punch marks are very distinctive.

Here's a repro flip sight on an Underwood.  Notice the big round punch marks - they line up with the adjustable sight staking locator notches. 

Adjustable sight re-installed.  (This is not the sight installed at the factory but the one added later in its service life.)



Edited by Matt_X - Dec 13 2021 at 2:41pm
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Medic314/79 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 2:39pm
I have no round punch marks, only four straight chisel marks, the gun never had an adjustable sight.
If I could not find an original flip sight I would install the adjustable and not stake it. I don't intend to shoot this carbine.

here are some more pics.
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Medic314/79 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 2:42pm
another
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 2:46pm
one more
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 2:48pm
Any machining and stamping on the left side?
edit - seems there's a time delay..
Closer picture of that and also the machining of the light gathering cones I think will help the experts.

The other thing I'm looking at is the staking of the pin into the base.
Again I only know enough to think that looked pretty good other than the IN B stamp and possibly a molding or casting line.  That's why I thought it was worth looking at more closely. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rdftwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 2:54pm
Sir,
I have seen a an early Inland much like yours that was original other than the rear sight. It most likely was a bring back that the owner wanted one of those fancy new sights with windage. He easily knocked off the flip and installed the adjustable and if the fit was tight...no staking. Later, some amateur wants to restore it. He gets a repop sight, knocks off the adjustable and doesn't bother (probably out of ignorance) to line it up with the chisel marks. You're good if you can find an original sight with consistent wear and finish. I might be wrong though.
Regards,
Aim Small...Miss Small
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 3:01pm
That's reasonable.  Staking would have been done by those following the book.  Others only if they thought neccessary.
  I still have the repop flip the previous owner installed and unfortunately if I recall it looks very similar.  Be right back.

We can be pretty sure this a repro so I'll offer it as a comparison.  




Edited by Matt_X - Dec 13 2021 at 3:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote rdftwo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 3:29pm
Yeah...not one milling mark and a nice parting line up the middle of the flip.
regards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 4:27pm
The left side has a crescent shaped divot over the "S" and a dent like imperfection, but no real milling marks as you see usually. 
 there is no casting line on the flip part.

 there is a long defect that almost looks like a milling scar just under the "IN B".
but it's not enough by itself to convince me this could be real.
I have not seen another IN B sight marked like this. 

I agree with the poster who said this was likely original and then someone added an adjustable sight and later,  another owner tried to bring it back to original but with this sight.

I will start the long slow search for an original "IN B" sight.

Thank you for all your thoughts on this!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 6:12pm
I think that if that it is a fake, you have more options.
Based on the production numbers and Jack's spreadsheet for IBM your carbine was probably completed in October (late) or November 1943.  
Going by WBIII, a sight marked with W-B, B-Q, GE-Q, or TN are other legitimate possibilites.  I suppose an unmarked sight is also possible, but less likely in that time frame.

It's probably worth your while to look at as many examples as you can for which ones show machine marks, and when they do, what they are and in what locations.

Check out the GE-Q shown here:These-flip-sights-real-or-fake#33444

Here's another comparison, although its for a U. 
In this case the fake has machining marks.

Another legit GE-Q and a B-Q to look at here

Hopefully sooner or later one of the experts gets in touch with you or you them.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 6:23pm
Thanks Matt_X.

it's amazing how many are willing to share some good experience, thought processes, and 
help! 

I've been able to navigate 1911's, M1 rifles, Krags, WW1 Bolt actions, even Civil War rifles.
But carbines seem to be a bit more clouded up with influences beyond Mil surp.......

I appreciate all input from all of you.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 7:54pm
Well this is the Carbine Collectors Club, lets go to the newsletters.
CCNL 329-4 Based on observed original carbines in that serail range you can have  W-B, FO B OR IN B
this does not mean other are not possible, but TN was not observed till 3.88 and GE-Q until 3.94
Stamped sights are also later.
The two closest COMs were 3720391 and 3735859. Both had IN B sights

I am not the best judge of rear sights, and the font does not look consistent with what I have observed. Maybe better pictures are in order and wait till some of the flip sight gurus chime in.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

Maybe better pictures are in order and wait till some of the flip sight gurus chime in.

+1 to this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 8:44pm
I'll put together some close up detailed pics tomorrow.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 13 2021 at 9:06pm
Most of the real IBM type 1 sights that I've seen had letters that were much thinner. Those letters look too "plump" to me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Why Carbines? Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 14 2021 at 7:24am
I've said it before and others too that know way more about repo flip sights than me; don't get hung up on the font! There are way better characteristics of a fake than the letters but they can help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medic314/79 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec 14 2021 at 12:07pm
Here are more pics. yes these letters look more like the fake ones. but the spacing is so different, It makes me think this is just a really bad fake?
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