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A Midway Italian Return Details

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Matt_X View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 9:16am
I'm not positive about my conclusion.
Reasons I think it is a later, cheaper replacement:
1. Stamping is thin.
.065" vs. the .092 W5USMC measured on his known originals.
2. Inside long edge the sling loops around feels sharp.  In machinist language, the corner hasn't been broken or chamfered.
3. The contours and shape seem a little crude.  That's pretty subjective I know.  

I was told the barrel band, screw and swivel on my SG are reproductions (photo below), so I have no 1940s examples to physically compare.
It does not look or feel like either of the swivels pictured above but has the shape and contous I'd more expect.
H'm, I'll pull it today and take a closer look and how the loop is formed and measure the thickness.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 10:52am
Originally posted by Matt_X Matt_X wrote:

H'm, I'll pull it today and take a closer look and how the loop is formed and measure the thickness.


The swivel from my SG (that I was told is repro) is on the right.
It measures 0.0975" thick  but it the cut of the metal and fit of the rolled eye does not look like the current Northridge repro.



And lets include the Northridge comparison so its in the same post.

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Pro Libertate View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Pro Libertate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:10am
Interesting. The band that came on my Italian import NPM (purchased directly from Midway) measured .092", but I wouldn't say its edges were particularly chamfered, though I suppose this is all relative to those on a reproduction. Wayne's certainly got a "trained eye" for discrepancies between counterfeits and genuine articles.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rebel92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:20am
This came on my Midway Carbine
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:39am
Originally posted by Pro Libertate Pro Libertate wrote:

Wayne's certainly got a "trained eye" for discrepancies between counterfeits and genuine articles.
Thanks, but I am still very much in the learning phase, especially when dealing with type I bands and swivels. All I said was Matt's swivel looked thin, and it is in fact thinner than the originals that I have. I will say that it matches his band finish much better than the Northridge swivel does. Lets just say that I am still on the fence with this swivel. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:40am
I'm just speculating here, but it seems that since the 1970s some portion of the Carabinieri were using these longer cross shoulder slings to carry in a ready position.

And that probably is why some of the Midway returns have swivels like this.


The guy I bought my carbine was starting to retrofit it for resale to WW2 reenactors.   He knows Garands well enough to do that, but apparently discovered carbines are more complicated.  When he got the carbine from Midway IF the swivel was bent as shown above,  he would have wanted to  replaced it - maybe with the cobbled c-tip sling and oiler he bought for the WW2 look.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 27 2021 at 11:50am
Not visible in the photos is how sharp the inside edge of the swivel feels.   It seemed like it would abraid through whatever web sling was installed.   Northridge had the swivel on ebay for sale seperate from a repro barrel band.  That's the main reason I bought theirs. 

I agree Wayne. The finish is more like a parkerize.  I'm now curious if Numrich and others have a different source for their repro band and swivel kits.  In their website photos they look black, but the only way to find out out is to order one or if someone here has one and sees this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct 28 2021 at 12:23am
Back when I was tracking the Exporter, Importer, US Customs Report, # of Carbines and Bill of Laden.
Midway had put this (in part) out early on:
"There are no records indicating how the Italian Armed Forces came into possession of these WWII M1 Carbines."
There are 146,863 Carbines listed on the Foreign Military Assistance Charts, being supplied thru MAP up to 1963 to Italy.
If I'm reading it correctly this total would span from 1950 to 1963. Reporting to Congress then became yearly reports in 1964.
Of course this number wouldn't include any carbines Italy received by purchase or other means thru other countries, than the US.

I was curious about, but have seen none so far that were reported with the Star and Date stamped on the top of the rear barrel. Like FAT 62 as a example showing the Italians had worked on it. If All of these were acquired from the Italians... Wouldn't you expect to see the FAT 62 stamps (example date) like the Pictured example below?

3,120 Carbines Reported on US Customs Report
Below is the Exporter: LIMEX GMBH of Germany's US Customs Record and Bill of Laden for the M1 Carbines to Importer PW ARMS INC.
Appears that PW ARMS INC. is their largest trading partner.


#4... BILL OF LADING...... HLCUHAM210277893
PRODUCT.................RIFLE 3120 PCS M1 RIFLE HS CODE 9303 3000
IMPORTER............... PW ARMS INC.
SUPPLIER................. LIMEX GMBH
ARRIVAL DATE..........2021-04-02
COUNTRY OF ORIGIN..GERMANY
GROSS WEIGHT KGS.... 22507 KGS
QUANTITY................ 151 PCS


LIMEX GMBH SHIPMENTS (Link likely timed out)
Open Link, Click on 'Shipments' then See #4 for detailsLimex Gmbh | See Recent Shipments | ImportGenius

I'm curious if #5 on the list Code: HS CODE 9301 9000 Could possibly be spare parts.
Is listed as '297 PIECES RIFLES'
Could these be Barrels ?

I'm not a member of the Web Site link so my Data is limited.
But I do see a lot of BM59 Rifle and Beretta pistol parts kits.

Later Midway had a *Update* on their description of these. In part it read:

UPDATE 5/19/2021 - While working through the grading process on the M1 Carbines, we now believe these issued carbines were turned back in to the U.S. Government for a functionality Check and Test. Our supplier believes this process would have been done in Europe and would have occurred prior to their transfer to the Italian Armed Forces. As part of the Check and Test process, parts may have been replaced or upgraded. Examples of replaced or upgraded parts could include stocks, bayonet lugs, sights, bolts, safeties or other small parts. In rare cases, barrels may have been replaced, but they appear consistent with wartime production and use. There is no evidence suggesting these guns have been refinished, just brought to a serviceable standard prior to their transfer.

My Point, The Italians returned Carbines to the US via the CMP. These Carbines were Exporter from Germany. Question is how many of these 3,120 came from Italy and other European countries ?

I've read about small parts being made by FN not just to include stocks.... Like Butt Plates.. etc.
Maybe it is a possibility that FN or someone else made some Swivels.



Much of this with a little more detail can be found in my replies #'s 16, 17, 20, and 23 in this thread on Milsurps: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=74117

Just tossing it out there... Why NO FAT / DATE ON BARRELS.
Maybe I missed some being reported with this, 

Has anyone seen or heard of any Midway Carbines with the FAT / DATE ON BARRELS ?

Ch-P777

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