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“50” marked stocks

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jackp1028 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jackp1028 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 28 2020 at 1:29pm
In my internet search for pictures of Robert W. Irwin stocks I found this one with the odd radius in the recoil plate area filled in. At the time I didn't think anything of the numbers stamped nearby. Sorry, the source of this image has disappeared.

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Dan Pinto, Photo Editor

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 28 2020 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by W5USMC W5USMC wrote:


Checked the only Israeli stock I own, it is on a CAI import, NPM with OI stock, STD/PRD rebuild stamp. There are no numbers stamped near the recoil plate but there is what appears to be a circled 1 or 7 on the bottom of the hand grip. Frank D posted a pic of a similar marking on MILSURPS.





Wayne, One of the pictures I posted with a 50 above is from a forum post. It also has a number on the bottom of the grip.

http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/forum/my-winchester-carbine-what-have-i-got_topic3631.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 29 2020 at 12:42am
Here are Frank D's 2 loose stocks.

Both stocks stamped with a single number 50 on the left side of recoil plate, both with same orientation- numbers tops towards recoil plate.
Both stocks have the serial numbers stamped on the left side: Israeli style.

#1 Darker stock is IO with CC and .U. rebuild #2218204 and also has a number 1 stamped on the bottom of the pistol grip.

#2 Lighter stock has the lighter stamped number 50. Marked LW no CC AAD rebuild #2972519

#1 Dark one in front. #2 the lighter one in back with lightly stamped 50



#1 Darker one with number 1 on grip bottom



#2 The lighter one now in front, the number 50 is best viewed in first picture above



Thanks to Frank Derrico for his help.
A link to the Milsurps thread:

Charlie-P777

Edit To Add: Dan, Trim em how you want em.


Edited by painter777 - Apr 24 2021 at 9:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2021 at 9:11pm
Seen another today on GI. A Israeli return with 50 on the stock to the left of the rear sight and to the left of the Recoil Plate tang. Stock SN# stamp matches the Action. Appears 2 larger Mis-aligned numbers were stamped under the pistol grip, possibly at separate times...... a large 1 and a 0.
Stenciled White number 157 near the oiler slot.
No mention of a Import stamp.
GI links below to pics.
Bottom of this page has a link to Milsurps where I posted some of the pictures described above.




I think it would be a good idea to have a copy of the IMI Carbine SP Ammo Data sheet fellow member GotSnlB28 located. And a Link here for that posting:

IMI - IDF Surplus Ammo Post:



I Also Posted a New Topic on Milsurps looking for anyone who might have served with the IDF or Police / Security in Israel looking for anyone who might have any knowledge with the number 50 stamped stocks.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote sheepdoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2021 at 10:10pm
I have an Israeli used M1 with a 50 stamped to the left of the recoil lug. Someone offered up the idea that it was the range that gun was sighted for. I talked with a person at my work who served in the Islaely army. He said the M1 carbine was a common arm used by the home guard there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 24 2021 at 11:54pm
Thx Sheepdoc, Thumbs Up
I don't have proof yet, but am currently searching out anyone who served using the M1 Carbine in Israel who may know or can verify that the 50 stamp does indeed mean it was sighted in for 50 meters.
If I make any progress I'll update this posting.

Enjoy your Sunday,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2021 at 12:09am
It may be a little more than sighted in at 50 meters, It might be sighted in at 50 meters with that special ammo.
Need to find someone with an unmolested since return and see if they have sighting issues and maybe Wayne can fire some and then some USGI spec ammo and compare the ballistics, both at 50 yards.

It seems you guys got all the ducks in a row, One more step and we may be able to put this one in the books!
+Edit to add+
I just looked up the ammo on GB and seems the price jumped, but confirmed what I was looking for.
I figured the (SP) was soft point. The ammo on GB confirms this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2021 at 12:30am
Yes SP,
I figured best to join these two or at least tie them together, so the IMI Ammo info was here also.

Go to bed Dan,
Says SP on Waynes box and the IMI Chart GotSnlB28 dug up.
Get some rest you have a big week coming up LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2021 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by sheepdoc sheepdoc wrote:

He said the M1 carbine was a common arm used by the home guard there.

Any chance he would be willing to translate the labeling on the ammunition in this thread?


edit: Nevermind. Painter777 found a translation and posted the info. in the thread linked above.


Edited by Matt_X - Apr 25 2021 at 8:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bart1015 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2021 at 2:15pm

I have an Israeli return stock with the normal SN on the left side.  On the right side, right above the trigger, it is stamped 250 in 3/16 inch numbers. 

Brett 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote painter777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 25 2021 at 10:10pm
From this IMI Box Label ?  Post from 2017:

I've messaged with one of those who left a reply..... jonnyc
He posted this reply on The Milsurps Link:

"I ran a village/kibbutz armory in Israel for about 4 years. I had 40 M-1 Carbines in stock and I don't recall any of the stamped markings you have shown. Now back then (1980s) I was military and much more into shooting than collecting, so I may have seen and ignored those stamps. We did use a 50 yard range for Carbine training, so that might explain the 50 mark."

Maybe just a Tid Bit, but it does tell us it was common training with the Carbine @ 50 yards.
Maybe it was 50 meters, time seems to dent memory.

FWIW,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote W5USMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2021 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by New2brass New2brass wrote:

I think (capitol THINK) I have seen a 100 in that location. I have seen the 50 on the left and on the right.

Here is a Israeli return NPM on GB with a 100 stamped on the right side.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 26 2021 at 8:34am


We have listed 50, 100, and 250
Here is a 200

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 26 2021 at 9:59am
Just scratching my head and wondering....Since so many of these carbines were rebuilt and the sights were changed: is it possible that those markings could be the range at which the 100 yard sight setting would be dead on?  Crazy idea, but if you think about it, it could be a possibility.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 26 2021 at 12:13pm
Dan speculated about that earlier.   It could make sense if they all were resighted to 50 meters.  But now it seems less likely to me the stocks would be stamped to alert the users of the range it was sighted to.   I think the evidence now points more toward some sort of logistics or tracking need. 
I could be completely wrong but think its worth looking in this direction too.
I suggest this because of the following:
* So far the IMI surplus police ammo seems to shoot with about the same trajectory at 100 yards as the Korean surplus.
* The known stamps are 50, 100, 200, 250.  That seems like an awful lot of discrepancy to ask the person issued the carbine to remember when push comes to shove.  For example at 100 yards there's about what? an 8 to 12" difference in a POI when using the tall flip sight instead of the short one.  
* Locations vary and some stamps are inked others, at least some 50s are not.    For field use, consistancy of location and ease of reading ought to be a high priority.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote New2brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 26 2021 at 12:29pm
keep in mind the ammo found that was designed for 50 meters. See Charlies post above

I had speculated that the 50 marked carbines were sighted in fro that ammo and were used in the congested city and urban areas .

Unless there was ammo for 100, 200, 250 it may be those carbines used normal ammo and those marked for sighted range?

I posted a link in the ammo thread


Maybe someone that is a member of the International Ammunition Association can reach out to member Fede to see if there are any other IMI specs for different ranges?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt_X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 26 2021 at 1:22pm
I understand.  I'm simply suggesting there may be alternative explanations.  It's possible IMI's mention of 50 meters may relate to factors other than POA.     I read IMI's sentence as the ammunition only has accuracy that can be counted to hit the intended target up to 50 meters. Based on IMI's comma placement, I don't think it means the terminal effects mentioned afterwords become less reliable after 50 meters.   (Also its hard to imagine much velocity lost after 50 yards. )

If the loading is is not consistant enough to recommend for reliable hits at 100 yards, that would be consistant with Paul Harrell's recent comparison of some IMI 5.56.  

Hope that clarifies my thinking and why I even mentioned it.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Smokpole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 26 2021 at 6:51pm
My comment was more in reference to the height of the front sight than anything else. Knowing where it was zeroed would give the shooter an idea of where to aim at various ranges. Like I said, I'm just wondering.... That is why a 250 doesn't surprise me. A very short front sight might very well zero at 250 meters......

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